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Old March 18th, 2017, 07:03 AM   #1
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Was the fall of UK Liberal Party inevitable even without the split during ww1?


I know that Labour movement was rising before and during the war, and the Representative of People Act in 1918 greatly benefited them. However, since Gladstone's retirement, Liberal Party also changed themselves by accepting the need of state intervention in solving market failures and social evils.

So, do you guys think that the fact that UK Liberal Party being replaced by Labour as a major party of government was unavoidable even without the split between David Lloyd George and Asquith in 1916?
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Old March 19th, 2017, 01:30 AM   #2

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Yes, the moment you had universal suffrage Labour were always going to steal their thunder.
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Old March 19th, 2017, 04:40 AM   #3

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The decline of the Liberal Party was both dramatic and irreversible. In 1906, the Liberal Party achieved its greatest electoral victory. But by 1910 they were already in decline. Following the 1910 election the Liberals had to rely on the support of the Labour Party and the Irish Nationalists. ... In 1900, the Labour Party got 62,698 votes in 1910 that rose to over half a million.
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Old March 19th, 2017, 06:55 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by funakison View Post
The decline of the Liberal Party was both dramatic and irreversible. In 1906, the Liberal Party achieved its greatest electoral victory. But by 1910 they were already in decline. Following the 1910 election the Liberals had to rely on the support of the Labour Party and the Irish Nationalists. ... In 1900, the Labour Party got 62,698 votes in 1910 that rose to over half a million.
It was the Tories experienced the biggest surge in number of votes, not Labour. Balfour was able to gain seats by dropping Tariff Reform out of their campaign so that they could unite. In fact, Dangerfield's view was criticized, as Labour was polling quite poorly in by-elections. The North-East Derbyshire by-election, for example, showed that Labour could not stand against Liberal candidates even in strong mining areas, where they were expected to do best. They rose to nearly 500000 in 1906, but thanks to the Lib-Lab pact.

It was the war and the split, as well as Cash for Peerage scandal and the failure of "Homes fit for Heroes" (the latter two permanently destroyed Lloyd George's reputation) destroyed the Party, not because they could not offer a better policy set to out-compete Labour. In fact, Liberal policies during the interwar were much more radical, while Labour actually pursued laissez-faire thanks to Mr. Snowden. The "We can conquer unemployment" would have led to an extreme landslide victory if it was adopted by another party.
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Old March 19th, 2017, 02:30 PM   #5

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the labour filled an important niche, especially with universal male suffrage. They were and still are locked in northern England and the industrial/former industrial areas as a result.
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Old March 19th, 2017, 06:00 PM   #6
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Much of what Thomson says is spot on. But the Liberals days were numbered as the main non Conservative alternative after the notorious 'Coupon Election of 1918 -when Lloyd George made his notorious ''A land Fit for Heroes speech..'' which promised retiring veterans of the war a land of milk and honey and delivered nothing but the mass unemployment and social turmoil and deprivation ofthe 1920's .+'30's
Labour resonated increasingly with the industrial working classes between 1918-31 but their faith was misplaced when -on his electon in 1923 to form the first minority Labour Govt (with Liberal support in the House of Commons) Labour party leader and first Labour Prime Minster, Ramsay McDonald allegedly said on gaining office --'Now I will get to kiss the hands of Duchesses..''a strange ambition for a supposed Socialist especially when it was possble then to tell a Briitish persons social clas by height and weight. Due to grossly unequal dietary patterns.
Thus, as late as 1935 the average U.K. middle class child was five lbs heavier and several inches taller than their working class counterparts.
As someon has rightly pointed out, Labour Chancellor Philip Snowden was wedded to 19th century Gladstoinian economic thinking -not the Keynsian economics that could have heped Labour to meet the aspirations of their ordinary working class voters.
Ironically, in the 1930' the guy who proposed Keynsian New Deal type economic policies was former Labour govt member turned Fascist Sir Oswald Mosely who left the Labour Party after they rejected his Keynsian /New Deal ideas for helping the mass unemployed.
In fairness, Labour under McDonald, cannot be wholly blamed for the 1931 financial crisis that in August 1931, saw the threatened as millions of hot foreign money -attracted by the previous high interest rate policy of Montague Norman Governor of the Bank of England-flee London at a astronomical daily rate.
An event which was precipatated by the failure of the Austrian Bank Credit-Anstaldt over which the 1929-31 Labour govt had no control.But it was the response of both McDonald & Snowden which damned them in the eyes of Labour Party traditionalists i.e getting into bed with Baldwn and his Tories in a Coalition govt who then instituted vicious attacks on working class living standards by savage cuts, including pay cuts, to the armed services which provoked the last Royal Navy mutiny in 20th century Britain at Invergordon in 1931.
Labourites like McDonald & Snowden also agreed to apply savage Means Tests to unemployed men who were not responsible for the mass unemployement which put them on the streets.
One would have thought then that the Liberals could have made a comeback as a result of the schism that McDonald & Snowden getting into bed with Baldwin and his Tories created in the Labour Party but that did not happen.
In fact the last death rattle of Liberal power was when Churchill appointed Archibald Sinclair as Minister for Air in his wartime Cabinet of 1940-45 Sinclair being the Liberal Party leader.
But in the Labour election victory landslide of 1945 the Liberals were blown away into insignificanece becoming increasingly the peripher party of the Celtic frnges in the UK which is why their leader in the 1950's and 60's Jo Grimond ,was the MP for Orkney a far cry from 1906 when another Liberal MP fr a Scottish constituency James Campbell Bannerman had become the Prime Minister of Great Britain in 1906 with a majority of over 100 seats.
The Atlee led Labour govt landslide of 1945 was historically an expression of the determination of the sons and daughters of the those betrayed by Liberal icon Lloyd
George's phoney 1918 pledge to give the First World War vets ''A Land Fit For Heroes to Live In..''
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Old March 19th, 2017, 06:36 PM   #7
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Much of what Thomson says is spot on. But the Liberals days were numbered as the main non Conservative alternative after the notorious 'Coupon Election of 1918 -when Lloyd George made his notorious ''A land Fit for Heroes speech..'' which promised retiring veterans of the war a land of milk and honey and delivered nothing but the mass unemployment and social turmoil and deprivation ofthe 1920's .+'30's
Labour resonated increasingly with the industrial working classes between 1918-31 but their faith was misplaced when -on his electon in 1923 to form the first minority Labour Govt (with Liberal support in the House of Commons) Labour party leader and first Labour Prime Minster, Ramsay McDonald allegedly said on gaining office --'Now I will get to kiss the hands of Duchesses..''a strange ambition for a supposed Socialist especially when it was possble then to tell a Briitish persons social clas by height and weight. Due to grossly unequal dietary patterns.
Thus, as late as 1935 the average U.K. middle class child was five lbs heavier and several inches taller than their working class counterparts.
As someon has rightly pointed out, Labour Chancellor Philip Snowden was wedded to 19th century Gladstoinian economic thinking -not the Keynsian economics that could have heped Labour to meet the aspirations of their ordinary working class voters.
Ironically, in the 1930' the guy who proposed Keynsian New Deal type economic policies was former Labour govt member turned Fascist Sir Oswald Mosely who left the Labour Party after they rejected his Keynsian /New Deal ideas for helping the mass unemployed.
In fairness, Labour under McDonald, cannot be wholly blamed for the 1931 financial crisis that in August 1931, saw the threatened as millions of hot foreign money -attracted by the previous high interest rate policy of Montague Norman Governor of the Bank of England-flee London at a astronomical daily rate.
An event which was precipatated by the failure of the Austrian Bank Credit-Anstaldt over which the 1929-31 Labour govt had no control.But it was the response of both McDonald & Snowden which damned them in the eyes of Labour Party traditionalists i.e getting into bed with Baldwn and his Tories in a Coalition govt who then instituted vicious attacks on working class living standards by savage cuts, including pay cuts, to the armed services which provoked the last Royal Navy mutiny in 20th century Britain at Invergordon in 1931.
Labourites like McDonald & Snowden also agreed to apply savage Means Tests to unemployed men who were not responsible for the mass unemployement which put them on the streets.
One would have thought then that the Liberals could have made a comeback as a result of the schism that McDonald & Snowden getting into bed with Baldwin and his Tories created in the Labour Party but that did not happen.
In fact the last death rattle of Liberal power was when Churchill appointed Archibald Sinclair as Minister for Air in his wartime Cabinet of 1940-45 Sinclair being the Liberal Party leader.
But in the Labour election victory landslide of 1945 the Liberals were blown away into insignificanece becoming increasingly the peripher party of the Celtic frnges in the UK which is why their leader in the 1950's and 60's Jo Grimond ,was the MP for Orkney a far cry from 1906 when another Liberal MP fr a Scottish constituency James Campbell Bannerman had become the Prime Minister of Great Britain in 1906 with a majority of over 100 seats.
The Atlee led Labour govt landslide of 1945 was historically an expression of the determination of the sons and daughters of the those betrayed by Liberal icon Lloyd
George's phoney 1918 pledge to give the First World War vets ''A Land Fit For Heroes to Live In..''
DLG voiced that famous/infamous slogan but he seemed to forget that he and his Coalition Liberals stayed there with the mercy from the Tory majority. The Tory never wanted social reforms, while the Coalition Liberals never wanted to merge to form the Centre Party. That's why his schemes failed.

The first Keynesian program was first introduced by Liberal in 1929 election.

In 1930-1931, Lloyd George was ill, so he could not direct his party, eventually causing the three-way split: Liberal, DLG and family, and Liberal National. If not, he could have done something differently, especially with Keynes at his side.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 08:11 PM   #8

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The decline of the Liberal party coincided with the growth of the Labour party which by the 1910 General Election was polling over 500,000 votes, This together with the realignment of the Tories forced the Liberals to seek allies amongst the Irish nationalists and Labour. Never again would it command a majority in the commons
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Old March 20th, 2017, 11:49 PM   #9
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The decline of the Liberal party coincided with the growth of the Labour party which by the 1910 General Election was polling over 500,000 votes, This together with the realignment of the Tories forced the Liberals to seek allies amongst the Irish nationalists and Labour. Never again would it command a majority in the commons
The biggest rise for Labour was between 1900 and 1906, thanks to nothing other than the Lib-Lab Pact. Most of the losses for Liberal were gained by Tories, who temporarily abandoned the unpopular Imperial Preference, not Labour. In the later election in 1910, Labour votes dropped both in absolute number and percentage, while Liberal vote share actually rose. Actually, before the war, Ramsey MacDonald was pessimistic about their prospect.

Without ww1, actually there was a risk that Carson and Bonar Law (the most dynamic force of Tory at that time) could be framed and arrested by Asquith for sedition, if Asquith was bloody-minded enough. The party leader, Andrew Bonar Law, associated himself with Sir Edward Carson and was particularly inflammatory in his speeches at a time when the Ulster Volunteer Force was arming itself and drilling as a militia.
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