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Old August 3rd, 2017, 05:12 AM   #21

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Can someone explain to me why is Russia an enemy of the west? As far as I know Russia was a westernized country in the past, during WWI was an ally of France and Great Britain, I just dont get it.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 06:04 AM   #22

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Can someone explain to me why is Russia an enemy of the west? As far as I know Russia was a westernized country in the past, during WWI was an ally of France and Great Britain, I just dont get it.
The western world was shaped by the Reformation, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution. Russia was not influenced by these, and even today Russia is an authoritarian state, where concepts such as human rights, parliamentary democracy, separation of powers and free market are not as developed as they are in Western Europe.

Besides that, there was never lot of trust between the western European countries and Russia, a tension which culminated in the Cold War.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 06:17 AM   #23
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The western world was shaped by the Reformation, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution. Russia was not influenced by these, and even today Russia is an authoritarian state, where concepts such as human rights, parliamentary democracy, separation of powers and free market are not as developed as they are in Western Europe.

Besides that, there was never lot of trust between the western European countries and Russia, a tension which culminated in the Cold War.
In other words this is not a recent, XX century event /read communism/ that caused distrust in the western world. Should we blame orthodox christianity for ultra conservatism in this northeastern giant state? This question is connected with your country also. Byzantine greeks broke with catholic west in 1054 /great schism/.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 06:28 AM   #24

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In other words this is not a recent, XX century event /read communism/ that caused distrust in the western world. Should we blame orthodox christianity for ultra conservatism in this northeastern giant state? This question is connected with your country also. Byzantine greeks broke with catholic west in 1054 /great schism/.
I would say yes, the Orthodox Church ( but not only it) is to be blamed for ultra conservatism, as it was always hostile to Western European ideas, in my country at least. But I think the same goes for Russia. Also, the Greek elite ( with some notable exceptions, such as prime ministers Trikoupis and Venizelos) never really wanted Greece to fully modernize, as this would be against their interests ( for example, most Greek politicians never attempted to put an end to clientelism and corruption, which are extremely prevalent in Greek politics, since the time of the Ottoman occupation and they will probably never do it, unless they are pressured to do so by outside forces)

Last edited by Lycurgus; August 3rd, 2017 at 06:33 AM.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 06:28 AM   #25
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Can someone explain to me why is Russia an enemy of the west? As far as I know Russia was a westernized country in the past, during WWI was an ally of France and Great Britain, I just dont get it.
I doubt very much that people in the west see it necessary for Russia to be an 'enemy'. Keep in mind that there was considerable effort on getting Russia to get along after the collapse of the USSR. Had Russia been seen as an enemy it would have been exploited at that point by foreigners. As it happened Russia was primarily exploited by Russians themselves which resulting in formation of oligarchs.

Part of the problem was Russian exceptionalism - Russia kinda refused to be dealt as a partner and instead wanted to be treated as the partner. Which didn't work that well with the western concepts. Another aspect is that it is convenient for hiding domestic troubles if you can show or paint bad enough foreign opposition or enemy for you. Both of which affected to the route Russia (under Putin) took - not western, but 'different'.

Part of that included painting western countries as the unfriendly or outright hostile. Actions which happened to affect Russians living abroad were broadcast in Russia as oppression aimed at Russians. Countries joining NATO was described almost like advance of an enemy despite that at the time Russia actually took part to NATO's Partnership for Peace exercises.

What Russia thinks of Europe | European Council on Foreign Relations


EDIT: Saddest part of that is that very few in the west care of the direction Russia chooses or goes along as long as it does so within its own borders.

Last edited by Vaeltaja; August 3rd, 2017 at 06:30 AM.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 06:52 AM   #26

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I would say yes, the Orthodox Church ( but not only it) is to be blamed for ultra conservatism, as it was always hostile to Western European ideas, in my country at least. But I think the same goes for Russia. Also, the Greek elite ( with some notable exceptions, such as prime ministers Trikoupis and Venizelos) never really wanted Greece to fully modernize, as this would be against their interests ( for example, most Greek politicians never attempted to put an end to clientelism and corruption, which are extremely prevalent in Greek politics, since the time of the Ottoman occupation and they will probably never do it, unless they are pressured to do so by outside forces)
I dont think this is entirely true, Eugenios Voulgaris who was a Greek orthodox priest was reading and teaching the works of Voltaire in Athos academy. The ideas of the enlightenment were quite popular in Greece by the end of the 18th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athonite_Academy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern..._Enlightenment

Last edited by Kentarchos; August 3rd, 2017 at 07:07 AM.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 07:02 AM   #27

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By the way Russia after Peter the great was like an enlightened monarchy, such rulers existed in the west too. By the way France did not had a Democracy prior to 1789, it was a regime based on absolutism. So France of Louis XIV was not a western country?
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 07:48 AM   #28
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By the way Russia after Peter the great was like an enlightened monarchy, such rulers existed in the west too. By the way France did not had a Democracy prior to 1789, it was a regime based on absolutism. So France of Louis XIV was not a western country?
I presume that Peter the Great is the ultimate ceasaropapist with his abolishment of the moscow patriarchate and putting on its place western/protestant like synod under his control. No byzantine basileus did so before him. Ecumenical patriarchate of the City is still very alive and kicking. So is restored patriarchate of all rus /restored after the fall of the empire.

EDIT: er. ..pardon. I completely forgot Henry VIII

Last edited by At Each Kilometer; August 3rd, 2017 at 07:51 AM.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 07:49 AM   #29

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By the way Russia after Peter the great was like an enlightened monarchy, such rulers existed in the west too. By the way France did not had a Democracy prior to 1789, it was a regime based on absolutism. So France of Louis XIV was not a western country?

I was referring to the fact that the Renaissance and the Enlightenment never influenced Greece as much as Western Europe, due to the occupation of Greece by the Ottomans and the anti - western sentiment of the Orthodox Church ( not all of orthodox priest and theologians were against western ideas, but I would say that most of them were). Don't forget that the Byzantines ( including the church) hated western Catholics so much that they didn't accept their help ( at the cost of the Orthodox Church's submission to the Pope) when the Ottomans had nearly conquered Constantinople.

As I said in my previous posts, many Greeks are somewhat anti western ( in the political sense) and sympathetic to Russia. Religion plays a part in that.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 08:18 AM   #30
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I would say yes, the Orthodox Church ( but not only it) is to be blamed for ultra conservatism, as it was always hostile to Western European ideas, in my country at least. But I think the same goes for Russia. Also, the Greek elite ( with some notable exceptions, such as prime ministers Trikoupis and Venizelos) never really wanted Greece to fully modernize, as this would be against their interests ( for example, most Greek politicians never attempted to put an end to clientelism and corruption, which are extremely prevalent in Greek politics, since the time of the Ottoman occupation and they will probably never do it, unless they are pressured to do so by outside forces)
I live in Varna, a city founded as Odesos by milesian colonists. This city had during ottoman yoke two districts - greek and turkish. Bulgarians are mid XIX century newcomers. Right in the middle of Varna a monument of Kaloyan was erected a decade ago. Ironically this very ceaser/tzar known for stopping 'western' expansion to the north after the fall of the City, four years earlier put to the sword inhabitants of Varna, who were byzantine/eastern roman greeks. By the way my ppl were part of rum millet for centuries under the patriarchate of new rome till the tanzimat reforms, because they were orthodox christians.

EDIT: I would like also to confirm that i sense this feeling of sympathy between different orthodox christian nations in the net.

Last edited by At Each Kilometer; August 3rd, 2017 at 08:29 AM.
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