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Old August 3rd, 2017, 09:31 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Lycurgus View Post
The western world was shaped by the Reformation, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution. Russia was not influenced by these, and even today Russia is an authoritarian state, where concepts such as human rights, parliamentary democracy, separation of powers and free market are not as developed as they are in Western Europe.

Besides that, there was never lot of trust between the western European countries and Russia, a tension which culminated in the Cold War.
Reformation or Counter-reformation as took place in Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Austria... right?
Renaisasnce only took place in few countries.. and not in Nordic at all.
Enlightement took place in many european countries.. also in Russia.. Have you ever heard about Cataline the Great? Have you ever heard about Mijail Lomonosov? In fact, the Russian enlightment was more important than the Norwegian "enlightment"...the Northern Albania didnīt highlight because their cultural movements at all..
But if you like... we can compare the Russian Literature and the Norwegian literature in 18th Century. The great palaces in Saint Petersburg and in Oslo... Ibsen or Tolstoi, Dostojevski, Lermontov etc etc

The Russian enlightment

So, according with your settings, Norway, Sweden, Denmark are not West countries.

Everybody can do the test: write in google RUSSIAN ENLIGHTMENT.. and now write NORWEGIAN ENLIGHTMENT...

So, it is clear... at least, Russia is as West as Norwegian... or more if we apply a mathematic formula.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 09:31 AM   #32

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I doubt very much that people in the west see it necessary for Russia to be an 'enemy'. Keep in mind that there was considerable effort on getting Russia to get along after the collapse of the USSR. Had Russia been seen as an enemy it would have been exploited at that point by foreigners. As it happened Russia was primarily exploited by Russians themselves which resulting in formation of oligarchs.

Part of the problem was Russian exceptionalism - Russia kinda refused to be dealt as a partner and instead wanted to be treated as the partner. Which didn't work that well with the western concepts. Another aspect is that it is convenient for hiding domestic troubles if you can show or paint bad enough foreign opposition or enemy for you. Both of which affected to the route Russia (under Putin) took - not western, but 'different'.

Part of that included painting western countries as the unfriendly or outright hostile. Actions which happened to affect Russians living abroad were broadcast in Russia as oppression aimed at Russians. Countries joining NATO was described almost like advance of an enemy despite that at the time Russia actually took part to NATO's Partnership for Peace exercises.

What Russia thinks of Europe | European Council on Foreign Relations


EDIT: Saddest part of that is that very few in the west care of the direction Russia chooses or goes along as long as it does so within its own borders.
Great comment!
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 09:58 AM   #33

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Originally Posted by martin76 View Post
Reformation or Counter-reformation as took place in Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Austria... right?
Renaisasnce only took place in few countries.. and not in Nordic at all.
Enlightement took place in many european countries.. also in Russia.. Have you ever heard about Cataline the Great? Have you ever heard about Mijail Lomonosov? In fact, the Russian enlightment was more important than the Norwegian "enlightment"...the Northern Albania didnīt highlight because their cultural movements at all..
But if you like... we can compare the Russian Literature and the Norwegian literature in 18th Century. The great palaces in Saint Petersburg and in Oslo... Ibsen or Tolstoi, Dostojevski, Lermontov etc etc

The Russian enlightment

So, according with your settings, Norway, Sweden, Denmark are not West countries.

Everybody can do the test: write in google RUSSIAN ENLIGHTMENT.. and now write NORWEGIAN ENLIGHTMENT...

So, it is clear... at least, Russia is as West as Norwegian... or more if we apply a mathematic formula.
I don't think Russians ever considered themselves part of the "west". Russia went from an authoritarian monarchy to an authoritarian socialist regime and then, after a period of political chaos (after the dissolution of USSR), back to an authoritarian monarchy (this time presidential monarchy). Human rights, parliamentary democracy, separation of powers and many other aspects of Western liberalism (not in the American sense) never took root in Russia. I think this one is obvious.

I was referring to the political influence of the Enlightenment, which was not so significant on Russia. ( but I may be wrong, as I have not studied Russian history that much)

Last edited by Lycurgus; August 3rd, 2017 at 10:03 AM.
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Old August 3rd, 2017, 11:56 AM   #34

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Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post

EDIT: Saddest part of that is that very few in the west care of the direction Russia chooses or goes along as long as it does so within its own borders.
Very sad indeed. The only problem is the West does not apply its own criteria to itself.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 07:25 PM   #35
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Greece is not part of Western Europe or the 'Western Eurosphere' (WE + Anglosphere + parts of Latin America). It is geographically, culturally, linguistically, and historically part of Eastern Europe.

The question now remains is if Eastern Europe (or at least Orthodox Europe) is part of Western Civilization. In my opinion, it is. So yes, I consider Greece part of Western Civilization, but I also see Romania, Bulgaria, etc. part of Western Civilization.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:58 AM   #36

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The question now remains is if Eastern Europe (or at least Orthodox Europe) is part of Western Civilization.
Sadly, this matter lies more about subjectivism rather than objective traits.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 07:19 AM   #37

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Originally Posted by Dzmeka View Post
Greece is not part of Western Europe or the 'Western Eurosphere' (WE + Anglosphere + parts of Latin America). It is geographically, culturally, linguistically, and historically part of Eastern Europe.

The question now remains is if Eastern Europe (or at least Orthodox Europe) is part of Western Civilization. In my opinion, it is. So yes, I consider Greece part of Western Civilization, but I also see Romania, Bulgaria, etc. part of Western Civilization.
Depends how we define 'Western Civilization'. That in itself is extremely problematic. I consider that modern Western Civilization (Anglosphere+Romance+Germanic countries) arose as a branch of Classical Greco-Roman civilization starting from the Middle Ages.

The other branch is the Greek East, embodied in the Byzantine Empire, the direct continuation of the Roman Empire and the legacy of Hellenism. Slavic Europe falls under this branch.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 10:10 AM   #38
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Depends how we define 'Western Civilization'. That in itself is extremely problematic. I consider that modern Western Civilization (Anglosphere+Romance+Germanic countries) arose as a branch of Classical Greco-Roman civilization starting from the Middle Ages.

The other branch is the Greek East, embodied in the Byzantine Empire, the direct continuation of the Roman Empire and the legacy of Hellenism. Slavic Europe falls under this branch.
For simplicity's sake, I am going to use the word 'European Civilization'. From the way I see things, Greco-Roman thought gave birth to the European Civilization. Later, the European Civilization split into west (Protestant-Catholic) and east (Greek Orthodox).

So saying that Greece is automatically part of Western Civilization because it gave birth to 'Western Civilization' is problematic due to the fact that the influences it had on the origins of Western European ideals have existed in the eastern part of Europe as well. So in that context, Western Civilization is either a misnomer or inclusive of Eastern Europe as well.

The main distinction between Western Europe and Eastern Europe occurs later when one is more influenced by the Romans and Franks (Western Europe) whereas the other is more influenced by the Greeks (Eastern Europe).
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Old January 4th, 2018, 03:28 AM   #39
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Or one could say people may define "The West" arbitrarily. I donīt think there is any objective definition. So we may include or exclude as we like. If the english speaking, as an excample only want to see themselves as "western" or the french see themselves as the centre of it, that is as good or bad as other deinitions?
And depending upon where we make the limits "the West" was not at all a group of allied or even friendly forces in he past. We could as well see them as the opposite.

Last edited by Fantasus; January 4th, 2018 at 03:30 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 05:30 AM   #40

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Is hard to define western Europe! Before WWII, Romania GDP was bigger than Norway one
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