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Old September 23rd, 2017, 01:21 PM   #31

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Holland got occupied and ended up losing Indonesia.
It wasn't a direct consequence, though the occupation by the Japanese obviously fueled the independence movement.

Years back I did a paper in the Dutch Indian navy. In short my conclusion was that the costs were getting too high (which is why our navy sucked) and the benefits didn't weigh up against it. From 1900 onward you didn't need to own the land in order to get a good deal on spices (plus spices weren't that hot anymore ).
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Old September 26th, 2017, 05:14 AM   #32

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It wasn't a direct consequence, though the occupation by the Japanese obviously fueled the independence movement.

Years back I did a paper in the Dutch Indian navy. In short my conclusion was that the costs were getting too high (which is why our navy sucked) and the benefits didn't weigh up against it. From 1900 onward you didn't need to own the land in order to get a good deal on spices (plus spices weren't that hot anymore ).
by the mid 20th century I think Indonesia was more valuable for the oil (Royal Dutch Shell).
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Old September 26th, 2017, 05:35 AM   #33

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If you havent seen it already this one is a must see in this regard.
Goodbye Lenin
Good Bye Lenin! (2003) - IMDb

I have seen it, what a great film. Arguably, one of the best German films.
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Old September 26th, 2017, 05:39 AM   #34

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I doubt not fighting the war would have saved the empire. It was a relic of the Victorian age. No WW2 for GB mean the empire either implodes with much violence and bloodshed or falls apart in much the same fashion.
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Old September 26th, 2017, 05:47 AM   #35

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Perhaps people should consider the alternative?

If Britain had lost the war then the world would have lost Britain, and in that loss any remaining sense of western freedom. The Americans wouldn't have been able or perhaps even willing to mount D-Day thus providing more German troops for the eastern front. Lend lease to Russia would also be difficult without the Royal Navy for arctic convoys. If Britain had fallen then the Germans and Japanese would have a free hand in Europe and Asia and we would be living in a very racist and strange world today.

Even had the Russians somehow managed to win, the idea of a soviet society isn't great either.

So a good job Britain and her empire did stand alone against the darkness, eh? Who else is gonna save the world?
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Old September 26th, 2017, 06:20 AM   #36

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UK(really only survived the Nazi's because of the USA and geography. Had to give up most of their colonies and superpowerdom within a decade of the end of WWII)
Well, Royal Navy was much more powerful than the Kriegsmarine, so I think that even without US help, Germans could not invade Britain. It would probably end as a stalemate, with Britain keeping its control over the seas and Germany dominating continental Europe. This was what Hitler hoped for the short-term (Germany + Britain vs USSR).

After he had achieved control over continental Europe and secured Russia's vast resources, he would probably start building a powerful navy to attack the UK.
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Old September 26th, 2017, 09:38 AM   #37
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Well, Royal Navy was much more powerful than the Kriegsmarine, so I think that even without US help, Germans could not invade Britain. It would probably end as a stalemate, with Britain keeping its control over the seas and Germany dominating continental Europe. This was what Hitler hoped for the short-term (Germany + Britain vs USSR).

After he had achieved control over continental Europe and secured Russia's vast resources, he would probably start building a powerful navy to attack the UK.
Granted and the Royal Navy's strength is exactly why geography was so important. That being said if the Germans prioritized the navy at the expense of the army the way the Brits did there is no doubt they had the capacity to surpass them. Even without doing this in WWI the Germans were a few years away from being able to match the Brits, in WWII they never really tried to achieve naval supremacy because while the Kaiser cared(even if it still took a back seat to the army), Hitler just didn't.

Okay I rephrase my point I think Hitler being istracted by the USSR was more important than the US help. With no USSR or USA, there is no way the UK isn't defeated eventually. They'd be vastly outnumbered and with airpower naval supremacy probably wouldn't even be needed to conquer the UK unlike in the past.
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Old September 26th, 2017, 09:58 AM   #38

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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
Perhaps people should consider the alternative?

If Britain had lost the war then the world would have lost Britain, and in that loss any remaining sense of western freedom. The Americans wouldn't have been able or perhaps even willing to mount D-Day thus providing more German troops for the eastern front. Lend lease to Russia would also be difficult without the Royal Navy for arctic convoys. If Britain had fallen then the Germans and Japanese would have a free hand in Europe and Asia and we would be living in a very racist and strange world today.

Even had the Russians somehow managed to win, the idea of a soviet society isn't great either.

So a good job Britain and her empire did stand alone against the darkness, eh? Who else is gonna save the world?
Why is that the only alternative? How about the UK not joining the war or the UK making peace with Germany? Are those somehow not alternatives?
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Old September 26th, 2017, 11:18 AM   #39
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Why is that the only alternative? How about the UK not joining the war or the UK making peace with Germany? Are those somehow not alternatives?
'Not a reasonable alternative.

You have to remember that Britain was in most things to make sure our ideas mattered. Call it influence.

The British Government would never stand aside while a Hitler took control of Europe.

Yes, there were those who advocated making peace with Germany, such as Lord Halifax, but it was never going to happen due to a strong and historic belief that the world should be liberal. Very similar with the United States. They may have had more German descendants than British descendants in their country, but the people who ran the show had largely liberal ideas that were at complete odds with Fascism.

Neither Britain nor the United States would ever in a million years have accepted a fascist regime taking control of Europe. It would be diametrically opposed to what both countries were aiming to achieve.
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Old September 26th, 2017, 11:54 AM   #40

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Why is that the only alternative? How about the UK not joining the war or the UK making peace with Germany? Are those somehow not alternatives?
German control of continental Europe = Germany becoming too powerful = Not good for British interests.
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