Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 4th, 2017, 03:03 PM   #1
Academician
 
Joined: Apr 2017
From: Northern lands
Posts: 95
Swedes are Germanicized Finns?


Specifically I'm talking about the Suiones being the same tribe as the Finns originally, who were and are, in their tongue called Suomi, which is no doubt related to their brethren Sami to the north.

It's widely thought that Sweden originated from a union between the Geats (Goths?) and the Suiones/Swedes (Svear in the map).
Click the image to open in full size.

What if the southern part Gotland was the Germanic portion and the northern Svear were originally more related to the Finns/Suomi.

Some factors:

1. The paternal bloodline of the founder of Kievan Rus, Rurik, who was basically a Swede, was found to be more frequently associated with Finnish bloodlines. We often think of the Finnish and Estonian lands as the victims of Viking raids, but what if the Swedes were their kin who just assimilated into a Germanic-Viking language?

2. Suiones is close to the Finnish Suomi and Sami and sound. They are also very close to each other in location. What if Suiones is a distorted transliteration of Suomi and Sami?

Last edited by Jangkwan; October 4th, 2017 at 03:08 PM.
Jangkwan is offline  
Remove Ads
Old October 4th, 2017, 03:23 PM   #2
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,159

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jangkwan View Post
Specifically I'm talking about the Suiones being the same tribe as the Finns originally,
Finns speak a uralic language, not an indo european language such as germanic.

Click the image to open in full size.


That swedes lived in western Finland at an early date is possible. Aikio claims to have discovered very early loanwords borrowed from germanic into both proto saami and proto finnish.

On germani-saami contacts and saami prehistory
http://www.sgr.fi/susa/91/aikio.pdf
authun is offline  
Old October 5th, 2017, 01:39 AM   #3

Mr Higson's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Nov 2015
From: Australia
Posts: 747

Characterizing the inhabitants of pre-bronze age Southern Scandinavia as 'Saami', I would think highly inaccurate. The common opinion is that Southern Scandinavia was Neolithic from 4,000 BC on-wards. And was at least two cultural invasions in the this period, who definitely weren't Saami.
Mr Higson is offline  
Old October 5th, 2017, 01:58 AM   #4
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,159

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Higson View Post
Characterizing the inhabitants of pre-bronze age Southern Scandinavia as 'Saami', I would think highly inaccurate. The common opinion is that Southern Scandinavia was Neolithic from 4,000 BC on-wards. And was at least two cultural invasions in the this period, who definitely weren't Saami.
Who has done that?
authun is offline  
Old October 5th, 2017, 02:45 AM   #5
Academician
 
Joined: Apr 2017
From: Northern lands
Posts: 95

Quote:
Originally Posted by authun View Post
Who has done that?
Well I might have. Basically the Goths were all over Europe during the Germanic invasion period of the Roman Empire. The Geats of Gotaland in Sweden could just be branch of this movement, and more importantly not the origin point of the Goths. Which basically implies that Sweden (or "southern Scandinavia") was occupied by a different people group before, which could only be the Saami-Finnish group or "Uralics".

The Saami-Finnish group was noticeably less advanced than the Germanics. It's highly unlikely they were the invaders in this story, but were likely the indigenous inhabitants of Scandinavia before the Germanics arrived.

Last edited by Jangkwan; October 5th, 2017 at 02:47 AM.
Jangkwan is offline  
Old October 5th, 2017, 02:53 AM   #6
Academician
 
Joined: Apr 2017
From: Northern lands
Posts: 95

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Higson View Post
Characterizing the inhabitants of pre-bronze age Southern Scandinavia as 'Saami', I would think highly inaccurate. The common opinion is that Southern Scandinavia was Neolithic from 4,000 BC on-wards. And was at least two cultural invasions in the this period, who definitely weren't Saami.
It may not be a precise way to define the ancient Swedes/Suiones, but it could be more accurate than characterizing them as Germanic in origin if we find out their key members had Uralic or more "Saami" bloodline origin.

Then again, Sweden would be a union between the Geats and the Swedes. The Geats I think were clearly Germanics, with a strong possibility of being related to the Goths. So its a question of what we're talking about I think. I would like to see if the Swedes were originally Uralic.

I think its pretty clear that the Uralics or Saami would have been living in the areas of Sweden first.

Last edited by Jangkwan; October 5th, 2017 at 03:04 AM.
Jangkwan is offline  
Old October 5th, 2017, 03:20 AM   #7
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,159

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jangkwan View Post
Well I might have. Basically the Goths were all over Europe during the Germanic invasion period of the Roman Empire. The Geats of Gotaland in Sweden could just be branch of this movement, and more importantly not the origin point of the Goths. Which basically implies that Sweden (or "southern Scandinavia") was occupied by a different people group before, which could only be the Saami-Finnish group or "Uralics".
The Suiones are the first group to be mentioned and as classical knowledge of Scandinavia improves over time, we get distinctions, such as the Götar and Svear. It's not logical to conclude that if they weren't Goths, they must have been Saami or Finns.

I wouldn't look at this question from the point of view of scandinavian germanics. If you want to know about the saami or finns, you need to look at the history of those groups. Certainly, from a linguistic point of view, they are very different. They will have interacted with their germanic speaking neighbours, but that doesn't mean they are descended from them.
authun is offline  
Old October 5th, 2017, 03:28 AM   #8
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,159

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jangkwan View Post
I think its pretty clear that the Uralics or Saami would have been living in the areas of Sweden first.
Very likely, but that doesn't mean the swedes are descended from them.

The people who did these rock carvings at Alta:

Click the image to open in full size.


might be the same group of people who did these rock carvings at Tanum:

Click the image to open in full size.


But who are these people arriving in boats?
authun is offline  
Old October 5th, 2017, 05:19 AM   #9
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,102

I seem to recall genetics is not a fit topic of discussion...

It's all rather a long time ago. Conjecture abounds. There's a fairly recent theory (which in some ways is a dust-off of one from the first half of the 19th c.) that Sweden had two Bronze Age groups, one hunter-gatherers one agriculturalists, living side by side for a long time before they fused.

According to some, conjecturally, the ship-carvings might have been made by the hunter-gatherers, but in part depict the other group (the shipsborne ones).

They are pretty wild in their speculations too. What they point to is that there are essentially two areas in Bronze Age Europe with this kind of preponderance of communication by ship — the eastern Med (Mycenae, Fenicians etc.) and the Baltic. So they have posited that just maybe there was and ACTUAL connection, by sea, between the Med and the Baltic at the time? The trade in Amber might be the Great Lure to get the southerners north.

It's speculative, but at least not impossible as a scenario. It also is deceptively like some of the things the 19th c. Swedish archaeological pioneer Sven Nilsson (professor of zoology at Lund Univeristy) proposed in the 1830's-60's.

There's ALSO a linguistic theory, according to which everyone in the northern half of Europe, north of the Alps, originally spoke Fenno-Ugrian languages, and then exchanged them for Indoeuropean with the advent of agriculture and the Neolithic period. (Btw Neolithic and Paeleolithic were coined by the Victorian archaeologists Sir John Lubbock, a disciple to he geologist Charles Lyell, who also as it happens translated Nilsson's big book "Skandinaviska Nordens urinvånare" into English in 1868, as "The Primitive Inhabitants of Scandinavia".)

Last edited by Larrey; October 5th, 2017 at 05:22 AM.
Larrey is offline  
Old October 5th, 2017, 10:24 AM   #10
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,159

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larrey View Post
There's ALSO a linguistic theory, according to which everyone in the northern half of Europe, north of the Alps, originally spoke Fenno-Ugrian languages, and then exchanged them for Indoeuropean with the advent of agriculture and the Neolithic period.
Kalevi Wiik, 'Europe's Oldest Language', is ploughing a lonely furrow with that - "Kalevi Wiik is a joke - nobody takes his theories seriously." Harsh, but there is not a shred of evidence that any finno ugric language was spoken in western europe at all. It's pure conjecture which makes as many assumptions about the vasconic languages as it does about the finnic language. Everything else is just 'unknown'.

Click the image to open in full size.

after about 5,500 BC:

Click the image to open in full size.


No evidence for either of these at all.
authun is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
finns, germanicized, swedes



Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can the Swedes establish an extensive trading empire in North America? weber the weaver Speculative History 5 July 23rd, 2017 01:26 PM
Swedes descended from Trojans King Arthur European History 97 December 9th, 2016 12:13 PM
why did the swedes perform so badly at Nordlingen? Karl XII War and Military History 1 July 26th, 2015 06:57 PM
Hitler was going to give Leningrad to Finns Sandels European History 6 March 9th, 2013 05:31 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.