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Old October 7th, 2017, 06:59 PM   #1
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Rome is overrated (except in military)


Rome is extremely overrated, in every aspect associated with Rome is a Greek copy cat or other Mediterranean city states, in it's aesthetics and architecture it's a Greek copy cat, there are dozens of things roman get credit for that they didn't invent, for example aqueduct, were used in ancient Egypt long before Rome existed, heck the the Indus valley civilization built many of them but nobody is singing their praise.
Another is the sewage and water Carthage had them long before Rome was anything Important, the roman grid system/city planning, Alexander used that same method to build Alexandria,
Even worse Rome gets praise for defeating a bunch of gaulish tribes, could someone on please elaborate on roman greatness, the only reason I see why roman get high praise is a bunch of Germanic barbarian who overrun Rome assumed everything under the son was created by it.

Edward Gibbon in his famous magna opus wrote, "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind" .....hello China, India and Persia exist.
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Old October 7th, 2017, 07:04 PM   #2
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Btw I forget to add statues, many roman statues are in fact copies of earlier greek ones so much so, that ancient statue enthusiast barely skip a beat when they hear roman statue has been found but became fan girls when the hear the reverse order.
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Old October 7th, 2017, 07:44 PM   #3
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That exception you made is a pretty big one. Rome became the ideal of power in Europe and the West and anytime someone made a uniquely large empire in Europe they were inaccurately named Roman Emperor, used a Roman title like emperor, kaiser or tsar or just dressed up with Roman regalia(Napoleon). Mussolini wanted to recreate the Roman Empire, Hitler wanted to create a Third "Reich"(the first of which was the Holy Roman Empire).

You are right Rome shouldn't get too much credit for conquering a bunch of Gaulish tribes, however it's not like their history is reliant on this achievement(Julius Caesar as an individual maybe a little). In Italy the Romans defeated the Etruscans, Syracuse, Phyrrus, they conquered Macedon, Greece, Carthage, Numibdia and the remnants of the Seleucid Empire. The Roman frontier made it to Mespotamia at it's height and only modern day Iran was perpetually beyond it's reach. Like they conquered the entire classical world except Nubia, Iran and for the majority of history Mesopotamia. Otherwise they had the whole coast of the Mediterranean on lock.
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Old October 7th, 2017, 08:09 PM   #4
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Their is no denying roman military and army we're awesome in their structure and their exploits, what am trying to critizes is called roman culture, the classical view that civilization declined once Rome fell, from what am seeing roman culture is a martial culture, so when Rome fell, the only regrettable thing is order, other than that Rome in certain asbect would have held Europe back, let me elaborate, Rome and Romans by extension knew techs such as water Mills and wind Mills and various labor saving technics, but never bother to improve because they were entirely dependant on slave labor, another thing is Romans saw mercantile activity as beneath them, so much so that they would use it to mock Carthage and when they Conquer Mediterranean the merchant ship would mostly be manned by slave.

Last edited by Highman01; October 7th, 2017 at 08:14 PM.
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Old October 7th, 2017, 08:30 PM   #5
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Their is no denying roman military and army we're awesome in their structure and their exploits, what am trying to critizes is called roman culture, the classical view that civilization declined once Rome fell, from what am seeing roman culture is a martial culture, so when Rome fell, the only regrettable thing is order, other than that Rome in certain asbect would have held Europe back, let me elaborate, Rome and Romans by extension knew techs such as water Mills and wind Mills and various labor saving technics, but never bother to improve because they were entirely dependant on slave labor, another thing is Romans saw mercantile activity as beneath them, so much so that they would use it to mock Carthage and when the Conquer Mediterranean the merchant ship would mostly be manned by slave.
Classical civilization IMO ended once Islam wiped out Persia and reduced the former Roman Empire to Greece and Asia Minor for most of it's remaining history. For me classical civilization was born when Persia unified the pre classical civilizations of the Middle East and died when the map of antiquity and the traditional balance of great civilizations ended.
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Old October 7th, 2017, 10:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highman01 View Post
Rome is extremely overrated, in every aspect associated with Rome is a Greek copy cat or other Mediterranean city states, in it's aesthetics and architecture it's a Greek copy cat, there are dozens of things roman get credit for that they didn't invent, for example aqueduct, were used in ancient Egypt long before Rome existed, heck the the Indus valley civilization built many of them but nobody is singing their praise.
Another is the sewage and water Carthage had them long before Rome was anything Important, the roman grid system/city planning, Alexander used that same method to build Alexandria, 
Well, people are singing the praises of Roman aquaducts because some of the Roman ones are still standing and still actually work, which isn't true of the Egyptian ones, and I don't see any evidence that the Indus civilation built aquaducts, and if the did none are still standing and definitely not in use.

Let us put this in perspective - there are more Roman buildings still standing and still in use in just the city or Rome than in all of ancient India, China, and North Africa combined.

The Pantheon was the largest domed building for a 1,000 years and is still the largest unreinforced concrete dome in the world, and there are about 100 Roman brigdes still standing and some still in use, while there are zero bridges from the Indus civilization and zero ancient Chinese bridges still in use (medieval yes, ancient Chinese bridges, no).

Rome was the first city to reach a million, and even Alexandria at its pick was maybe 2/3 or 1/2 that size. The Romans built the world's first sports stadiums, and the Coliseum could hold 50,000, respectable even for today. No other civilization could close to having a public buulding housing so many. The Coloseum held as many peole as lived in the largest Indus valley city.


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Even worse Rome gets praise for defeating a bunch of gaulish tribes, could someone on please elaborate on roman greatness, the only reason I see why roman get high praise is a bunch of Germanic barbarian who overrun Rome assumed everything under the son was created by it. 
The Romans were able to end piracy in the Mediterranean - the Chinese were never able to end piracy on the China sea, nor were the later Caliphate and Ottoman empire able to end piracy on the Mediterranean the way the Romans did.

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Edward Gibbon in his famous opus wrote, "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind" .....hello China, India and Persia exist.
While I agree Gibbon overrated the Romans, if you go to Roman cities like Rome, you can still magnificent buildings like the Pantheon still in use to this day. If you go to China, India or Persia, all you will see is flat land where their ancient capitals used to stand, where their palaces used to stand. Even where their capitals once stood, you find scarcely a ruin, while throughout the area ruled by Roman you will find some impressive Roman structure still existing - the Roman baths of Bath England, the amphitheatre in Arles, France, a host of buildings in Roman too numerous to mention, the aqueducts of of Constantinople and its walls.

While I haven't seen the remains of a single ancient Chinese, Indian, or Persian watermill, you can see the remains of a half dozen Roman watermills in Barbegal, France. You can also go to the British Museum to see a Roman watermill. Tell me which museums hold the remains of an ancient Perisan, Indian, or Chinese watermill?

Romans overrated? Yes, because nobody could live up to some of the high opinion, but they were pretty impressive.


And the calendar used throughout the world is based on the Roman one
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Old October 8th, 2017, 12:41 AM   #7

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Err no, Rome and its Empire were if anything under-rated! Historical revision of recent decades reveals it to have been a more massive entity than imagined before hand.
The city itself was impressive, with something 250,000 in the old walled city. And 750,000 or so in the surround suburbs. The port facilities of Ostia more massive than previously imagined as well.
The Empire at its height more likely had a population of 100 million than the 50 million of previous estimates. The same area today holds 600 million.
Rome wasn't some Greek and Italian fuddy-duddies, that weren't merely the middle stage between between the caves and us. They were us, a previous incarnation! They were Western Civilization Mk I!
Nothing remotely equaled its industrial power until the 18th century.
It greatness was more in feats of engineering than its army.
Its decline and fall remains a warning to the hubris of Western Civilization Mk II. But I suspect the ears are death to the warning.
In essence, Rome fell victim to it run away success. And ate itself out of house and home. Just as we are doing today!
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Old October 8th, 2017, 01:02 AM   #8

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Living in Italy I cannot avoid to note that a lot of Roman constructions are still there and some of them are even used today for purposes not so different from the ones the Romans imagined ...

Think to the Roman amphitheater at Verona.

That "arena" is hosting shows since the 1st century CE and thanks to its continuous activity it has been preserved in a marvelous way: nowadays it's a place for concerts, TV shows, opera ...

I ignore if there is an other theater which can declare to be in activity since the first century CE.

Curiously enough, the "Barbarians" after the wars used it [Theodoric organized shows and celebrations in it ...]. The damages we can see come from two earthquakes, in 1116 and 1117.

A part this cultural detail, what it has been said regarding Romans not being original is quite correct: the victory key of the "Roman Civitas" was to absorb the best of the civilizations they got in touch with ... improving it and making it "Roman".
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Old October 8th, 2017, 06:34 AM   #9

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highman01 View Post
Rome is extremely overrated
Look, why not just yell "I HATE ROME" and leave a little pile of poop in the corner? It would be more constructive and intellectual, really...

Quote:
in every aspect associated with Rome is a Greek copy cat or other Mediterranean city states, in it's aesthetics and architecture it's a Greek copy cat,
Garbage. There was absolutely influence, how could there not be? EVERY culture influences those around it and vice versa. Yes, the Romans greatly admired SOME parts of Greek culture, but the Roman versions were DIFFERENT. Very clearly, to anyone who has actually looked. Different artwork, different architecture, different religion, etc.

Quote:
there are dozens of things roman get credit for that they didn't invent, for example aqueduct, were used in ancient Egypt long before Rome existed, heck the the Indus valley civilization built many of them but nobody is singing their praise.
Another is the sewage and water Carthage had them long before Rome was anything Important, the roman grid system/city planning, Alexander used that same method to build Alexandria,
They get very due credit for applying any number of things on a scale more massive than ever before. Yeah, a lot of cavemen knew how to dig a ditch to get water from one place to another. So? See a lot of Egyptian aquaducts still carrying water in Africa, Asia, and Europe? Should we petulantly dismiss the foundations of Western civilization because any number of early cultures had straight streets or discovered it was clever to pipe stinky sewage away from their homes?

If you bothered to check any source other than a 3rd-grader's website or "My First Big Book on Rome" you might be surprised to discover that we ALREADY KNEW that the Romans didn't invent everything. But if you're bent on blaming the Romans for the ignorance of modern people, why even bother whining to us?

Indus Valley? Sorry, what does that have to do with Western civilization? You might as well bring up China. Oh, wait, you did.

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Even worse Rome gets praise for defeating a bunch of gaulish tribes, could someone on please elaborate on roman greatness, the only reason I see why roman get high praise is a bunch of Germanic barbarian who overrun Rome assumed everything under the son was created by it.
You're kidding, is this the best you can do? Again, if you actually studied any history beyond "Ultimate Warrior" shows it might turn out that Caesar's writings are simply the best sources we have for Roman military activities. Heck, for ANY ancient military activities! So obviously it gets a lot of attention. Oh, and your classic chesnut "Gauls were just pathetic kindergarteners/5th century Germans CURB-STOMPED ROMANS"--Congrats, kid, perfect way to sum up how little you know of history.

Quote:
Edward Gibbon in his famous magna opus wrote, "IN the second century of the Christian era, the Empire of Rome comprehended the fairest part of the earth, and the most civilised portion of mankind" .....hello China, India and Persia exist.
Again, you're blaming Rome and its accomplishments for the rhetoric of a 19th century scholar who (TA-DAAA!) LIKED ROME. That's what he was studying, and China had nothing to do with it. Why should he bother mentioning it?

If you're going to going to reduce the study of history to "Mine's bigger" and "Did, too/Did not", why don't you go back to Total War?

Matthew
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Old October 8th, 2017, 07:40 AM   #10
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I made another thread (in ancient history) for the argument the modern world needed the "death" of empire to emerge.
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