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Old November 3rd, 2017, 03:34 AM   #11

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Because of an almighty cock-up we have the much-fictitious Song of Roland!
So what ? Still great thing !
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Old November 3rd, 2017, 03:44 AM   #12
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I read somewhere that as a result of Charlemagne’s wars slavery was reestablished and spread again in Western Europe.
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Old November 3rd, 2017, 06:31 AM   #13

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So now I've learned that in addition to the above he was prone to eating meat when it was against doctor's orders.. that he was also known as "Charles" or "Charles the great" and various related things, and promoted learning (is he partly responsible for Europe becoming a center of learning?)
I think it's often referred to as the "Carolingian Renaissance". Karl ("der Große" - the german form of the name) called some of the most important savants of his time to his court; others were installed as bishops. There was a new script, there were efforts to collect and preserve whatever knowledge remained from ancient Rome, to give the clerics at least a minimum education (some of them didn't know enough latin to properly perform their liturgy) and there even was the beginning of literature in the "lingua thiutisca".
To me Carolingian thoughts sometimes seem almost modern when compared to high or late medieval ideas.

One of Charlemagne's decrees, "Capitulare de villis vel curtis imperii", is an important source for the daily life as it lists the plants that were cultivated at the time.

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I read somewhere that as a result of Charlemagne’s wars slavery was reestablished and spread again in Western Europe.
I do not know about that. That seems to imply that before slavery/serfdom had for some time ceased to exist. When would that have been?
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Old November 6th, 2017, 02:45 AM   #14

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So what ? Still great thing !
Some people assume or think it is true. And build a picture similar to the Hollywood Camelot. Which is fine, but not history.

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I do not know about that. That seems to imply that before slavery/serfdom had for some time ceased to exist. When would that have been?

When indeed, except under muslim rule? Maybe he inherited a Narbonne and Spanish March already free of Roman-era slavery and reversed the process?
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Old November 6th, 2017, 05:58 AM   #15

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I think it's often referred to as the "Carolingian Renaissance". Karl ("der Große" - the german form of the name) called some of the most important savants of his time to his court; others were installed as bishops. There was a new script, there were efforts to collect and preserve whatever knowledge remained from ancient Rome, to give the clerics at least a minimum education (some of them didn't know enough latin to properly perform their liturgy) and there even was the beginning of literature in the "lingua thiutisca".
To me Carolingian thoughts sometimes seem almost modern when compared to high or late medieval ideas.

One of Charlemagne's decrees, "Capitulare de villis vel curtis imperii", is an important source for the daily life as it lists the plants that were cultivated at the time.



I do not know about that. That seems to imply that before slavery/serfdom had for some time ceased to exist. When would that have been?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaver...edieval_Europe
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Old November 6th, 2017, 07:12 AM   #16

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So, to sum up, slavery was well and alive during Charlemagne's lifetime, which was quite before 1000. That's what I thought. From the books I've read, I got the impression the line between "slavery" and "serfdom", particularly in case of "servi cottidiani", is rather blurry anyway.
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Old November 6th, 2017, 08:16 AM   #17

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I recently muddled through the Chanson de Roland in (modern) French, and it is actually quite a beautiful text, even in its updated state. One can tell that it comes from that time when all great stories were told through song and poetry; it is full of flavor and passion, a relic from a time before the dusty academics took control of the past.

Perhaps someday I'll get around to working through it in medieval French. I worry that the flow of the thing would be lost because of my slowness however.
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Old November 6th, 2017, 08:37 AM   #18

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So, to sum up, slavery was well and alive during Charlemagne's lifetime, which was quite before 1000. That's what I thought. From the books I've read, I got the impression the line between "slavery" and "serfdom", particularly in case of "servi cottidiani", is rather blurry anyway.
Well, yes there were slavery. But no christian slaves but pagan of all kind and colour.

The slaves were brought to the big slave market in Verdun, Lorraine and sold to jewish merchants. This merchant where specialized in castrating male slaves which were sold to the muslim in Spain.

https://savoirsdhistoire.wordpress.c...pour-un-harem/
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Old November 6th, 2017, 01:04 PM   #19
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Well, yes there were slavery. But no christian slaves but pagan of all kind and colour.

The slaves were brought to the big slave market in Verdun, Lorraine and sold to jewish merchants. This merchant where specialized in castrating male slaves which were sold to the muslim in Spain.

https://savoirsdhistoire.wordpress.c...pour-un-harem/
Merci Isleifson, you are a source of all kind of subjects...even an article on eunuchs...I read it all...and even the author has to be respected for his in depth research.

I thank also Josefa for her many to the point messages.

Kind regards from your friend Paul from the borderland (Lotharingen) as you.
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Old November 7th, 2017, 12:55 AM   #20

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On a slight side note, the Great Almanzor's policy was changing the Caliphal (Cordoba) army (of Cordoba) to be almost entirely professional and mercenary (and mixed) - to avoid any power bases within the Caliphate.

The berbers were recruited from Africa (as opposed to 'Spanish' berbers from an earlier era). The other main component was Slavs, who were sold to them by the Franks.

Probably not too bad a deal, the pay was all in loot, from Almanzor's 50-odd successful razzias to the north. Slavs formed one of the contingents which made up the mozaic of muslim Spain as the Caliphate collapsed later.
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