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Old November 24th, 2017, 09:28 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Pacific_Victory View Post
When did Frankish finally die out among the ruling classes? My understanding is that it survived for a while among the noblesse even while the people themselves spoke la langue romane and/or tudesque.
Some french historians refer to the french revolution as the final victory of the Gauls over the Franks. Oversimplistic but it demonstrates the sentiment you ask about.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 10:20 AM   #42

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Some french historians refer to the french revolution as the final victory of the Gauls over the Franks. Oversimplistic but it demonstrates the sentiment you ask about.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 12:10 PM   #43

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Some french historians refer to the french revolution as the final victory of the Gauls over the Franks. Oversimplistic but it demonstrates the sentiment you ask about.
That's a charming way of thinking of it. Grossly oversimplified as you mention, but its exactly the kind of cultural meme that sticks in the popular memory.

But I asked the question because I was wondering if Frankish would have still been in practice among the upper nobility at the time of Charlemagne. Did it manage to survive the end of the Merovingians as a prestige language, or would Charlemagne have used only Romane, Tudesque, and Latin?
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Old November 24th, 2017, 12:20 PM   #44
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Son of Isleif,

yes those French in their roman national have their Vergingetorix (even before Clovis The Germanic Chlodovech )
but the Germans have in their roman national also their Arminius (to be German and to fit in that roman it had to be Hermann)


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And we people of the borderland between the two:

Click the image to open in full size.

And we and the language border still there (a bit changed perhaps from the Charlemagne time through conquest and reconquest but not that much) From Boulogne in nowadays France over present day Belgium through Lorraine, Alsace and Switzerland over the North of todays Italy till the Dalmatian coast...
https://books.google.be/books?id=z0m...page&q&f=false

KInd regards from your borderland friend Paul.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 12:26 PM   #45

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He was the first ruler since the Roman Emperors to rule a large part of Europe.

He wasn't called Holy Roman Emperor for nothing.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 12:47 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Pacific_Victory View Post
That's a charming way of thinking of it. Grossly oversimplified as you mention, but its exactly the kind of cultural meme that sticks in the popular memory.

But I asked the question because I was wondering if Frankish would have still been in practice among the upper nobility at the time of Charlemagne. Did it manage to survive the end of the Merovingians as a prestige language, or would Charlemagne have used only Romane, Tudesque, and Latin?
Pacific history,

something about your question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_language

Kind regards, Paul.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 01:13 PM   #47

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Pacific history,

something about your question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_language

Kind regards, Paul.
Thank you for the link. Reading through the page, I found this gem, which just about answers my question.

Quote:
It is speculated that the dialects originally spoken by the Ripuarian Franks in Germany possibly developed into, or were subsumed under, the German dialects called the Central Franconian dialects (Ripuarian Franconian, Moselle Franconian and Rhenish Franconian). These languages and dialects were later affected by serious language changes (such as the High German consonant shift), which resulted in the emergence of dialects that are now considered German dialects. Today, the Central Franconian dialects are spoken in the core territory of the Ripuarian Franks. Although there may not be definite proof to say that the dialects of the Ripuarian Franks (about which very little is known) developed into the Central Franconian dialects, there are—apart from mere probability—some pieces of evidence, most importantly the development -hs → ss and the loss of n before spirants, which is found throughout Central Franconian but nowhere else in High German. Compare Luxembourgish Uess ("ox"), Dutch os, German Ochse; and (dated) Luxembourgish Gaus ("goose"), Old Dutch gās, German Gans. The language spoken by Charlemagne was probably the dialect that later developed into the Ripuarian Franconian dialect.[14]
What is even better is that they have it sourced, providing this citation.

Quote:
Keller, R.E. (1964). "The Language of the Franks". Bulletin of the John Rylands Library of Manchester. 47 (1): 101–122, esp. 122. Chambers, W.W.; Wilkie, J.R. (1970). A short history of the German language. London: Methuen. p. 33. McKitterick 2008, p. 318.
So it appears that Charlemagne would indeed have been speaking a Frankish dialect at the time.

I'm also wondering what the difference between Tudesque and Frankish/Old Franconian would have been. Both of these terms seem to designate dialect continuums rather than standard languages.

Last edited by Pacific_Victory; November 24th, 2017 at 01:40 PM.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 01:38 PM   #48

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Then of course there is another part of the puzzle from the French equivalent on Wiki -

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Il ne faut pas confondre le terme francique avec celui de franconien qui désigne en français, uniquement le dialecte haut-allemand de Franconie, à savoir le francique oriental. Si la plupart des Francs du premier millénaire parlaient des dialectes bas-allemands, Charlemagne (ayant de par sa mère des origines rhénanes) et les siens parlaient des dialectes haut-allemands.


This suggests to me that Charlemagne would have been speaking a Ripuarian Frankish (venant des Francs rhénans), that differed from the Salian Frankish dialect spoken by the Salian population in the area where he ruled.

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Antérieurement à Charlemagne, les Francs s'exprimaient donc dans une langue (peut-être différents dialectes) que les spécialistes rattachent au groupe linguistique dit bas allemand, plus précisément le sous-groupe bas-francique auquel appartient le néerlandais.
Is this suggesting that Charlemagne changed the way the Francs expressed themselves? Surely the Emperor's Ripuarian roots and dialect couldn't change the entire language of the salian Frankish realm... or did it? Or perhaps this represents a replacement of the Salian Frankish dialect by the Ripuarian Frankish dialect as the prestige language of high nobility at the time of Charlemagne.

Furthermore, is the Tudesque as recorded at the time of the Serments de Strasbourg the descendant of Charlemagne's Ripuarian Frankish dialect (classified as a member of the High German group) or a descendant of the Salian Frankish (classified as Low German and in the same group as Dutch) presumably still spoken by the local population?
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Old November 24th, 2017, 02:12 PM   #49

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Originally Posted by Pacific_Victory View Post
Then of course there is another part of the puzzle from the French equivalent on Wiki -


[/B][/COLOR]
This suggests to me that Charlemagne would have been speaking a Ripuarian Frankish (venant des Francs rhénans), that differed from the Salian Frankish dialect spoken by the Salian population in the area where he ruled.



Is this suggesting that Charlemagne changed the way the Francs expressed themselves? Surely the Emperor's Ripuarian roots and dialect couldn't change the entire language of the salian Frankish realm... or did it? Or perhaps this represents a replacement of the Salian Frankish dialect by the Ripuarian Frankish dialect as the prestige language of high nobility at the time of Charlemagne.

Furthermore, is the Tudesque as recorded at the time of the Serments de Strasbourg the descendant of Charlemagne's Ripuarian Frankish dialect (classified as a member of the High German group) or a descendant of the Salian Frankish (classified as Low German and in the same group as Dutch) presumably still spoken by the local population?
I am not entirely sure I understand you. Would this mean he spoke "low Germanic". If that would be the case his name may have been pronounced akin to Karl or Karel, which if I am not mistaken his Latin name also suggests.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 02:28 PM   #50

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I am not entirely sure I understand you. Would this mean he spoke "low Germanic". If that would be the case his name may have been pronounced akin to Karl or Karel, which if I am not mistaken his Latin name also suggests.
From what I've managed to figure out, the Frankish ruling class that we know of were of the Salian Frankish branch. These Salian Franks had originally lived on the Rhine but in the 5th century they migrated west to modern day Belgium, with their power centers being Tournai and Cambrai. The Franks who remained on the Rhine in the east are called Ripuarian Franks (or Francs rhénans in French).

There are linguistic differences between these two groups. Despite Salian and Ripuarian being considered two dialects of Frankish, the first belongs to the Low German group and the latter to the High German group (or perhaps Middle German group as the French wiki says - I don't know enough about Germanic language classification to tell which is correct or exactly what the distinction is).

Because the Salian Franks were the more powerful group of the time, giving rise to the Merovingian and Carolingian dynasties, I had assumed that Charlemagne would have spoken a Salian dialect, but it turns out his mother was a Ripuarian Frank and thus his mother tongue was Ripuarian Frankish. The French wiki suggests that this dialect became the dominant dialect among Frankish nobility at his installation into power and thereafter, enduring at least until the time of the Serments of Strasbourg in 842, but likely until the language was dropped altogether by the nobility in favor of Old French.

This is a helpful graphic that can help sort thing out a little.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francs...400_et_440.svg

Last edited by Pacific_Victory; November 24th, 2017 at 02:32 PM.
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