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Old November 24th, 2017, 02:36 PM   #51

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As far as the pronunciation of the name is concerned, it was almost certainly pronounced with the hard K sound and not the soft French "ch" sound. I'm not even certain that this sound had replaced the hard k sound in the "rusticam romanam linguam" of France at the time. Not 100% sure when that change took place.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 02:37 PM   #52

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From what I've managed to figure out, the Frankish ruling class that we know of were of the Salian Frankish branch. These Salian Franks had originally lived on the Rhine but in the 5th century they migrated west to modern day Belgium, with their power centers being Tournai and Cambrai. The Franks who remained on the Rhine in the east are called Ripuarian Franks (or Francs rhnans in French).

There are linguistic differences between these two groups. Despite Salian and Ripuarian being considered two dialects of Frankish, the first belongs to the Low German group and the latter to the High German group (or perhaps Middle German group as the French wiki says - I don't know enough about Germanic language classification to tell which is correct or exactly what the distinction is).

Because the Salian Franks were the more powerful group of the time, giving rise to the Merovingian and Carolingian dynasties, I had assumed that Charlemagne would have spoken a Salian dialect, but it turns out his mother was a Ripuarian Frank and thus his mother tongue was Ripuarian Frankish. The French wiki suggests that this dialect became the dominant dialect among Frankish nobility at his installation into power and thereafter, enduring at least until the time of the Serments of Strasbourg in 842, but likely until the language was dropped altogether by the nobility in favor of Old French.

This is a helpful graphic that can help sort thing out a little.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francs...400_et_440.svg
Merci. Still quite confusing
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Old November 24th, 2017, 02:50 PM   #53

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Merci. Still quite confusing
It is indeed confusing. I'm barely muddling my way through it.

So far I've constructed a somewhat simplified narrative that goes like this:

1.) The Frankish realm as far back as we can attest it was divided into two parts. We now call these two groups Salian and Ripuarian. Both groups originally lived on the Rhine, with the Salians bordering the Ripuarians to the North.

2.) In the early to mid 5th century, the Salian Franks left their home bordering the Ripuarians on the Rhine and migrated West to modern day Belgium, centering around Tournai and Cambrai. The Salian Franks had made agreements with the Romans and had fought for them against other barbarian raiders.

3.) These Salian Franks (probably due to their relations and proximity to Rome?) became quite succesful, giving rise to the power structures that we associate with the Franks - the Merovingian and later Carolingian dynasties. These noble and royal Franks spoke the Low German, Salian Frankish dialect, as opposed to the High German Ripuarian dialect.

4.) Charlemagne was a descendant of these Salian Franks by his father. HOWEVER, his mother was a Ripuarian Frank and thus spoke a High/Middle German dialect of Frankish from the Rhine. Charlemagne seems to have replaced the Salian (Low German) dialect with the Ripuarian (High/Middle German) dialect as the language of Frankish nobility. A change which endured until the Franks dropped Frankish altogether in favor of French.

Last edited by Pacific_Victory; November 24th, 2017 at 02:52 PM.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 03:04 PM   #54

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Thanks. That clears a lot of things up. In particular if like me you never heard of Ripurian Franks.
A broad brush question (I am completely unfamiliar with the terminology)
High German would mean similar to Hoch-Deutsch? Low German would mean similar to Dutch and Platt-Deutsch?
If that is correct his name would probably more similar to Karl than to Karel and would seem to explain why the e is silent in Charles (in French).
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Old November 24th, 2017, 03:12 PM   #55

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Thanks. That clears a lot of things up. In particular if like me you never heard of Ripurian Franks.
A broad brush question (I am completely unfamiliar with the terminology)
High German would mean similar to Hoch-Deutsch? Low German would mean similar to Dutch and Platt-Deutsch?
If that is correct his name would probably more similar to Karl than to Karel and would seem to explain why the e is silent in Charles (in French).
Yes, Ripuarian Frankish would have been a dialectal ancestor of some of the High German dialects spoken today such as in Franconia and Northern Bavaria, while Salian Frankish would have been a distant ancestor of modern Platt-Deutsch, Dutch, and Flemish.
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Old November 24th, 2017, 03:48 PM   #56

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Yes, Ripuarian Frankish would have been a dialectal ancestor of some of the High German dialects spoken today such as in Franconia and Northern Bavaria, while Salian Frankish would have been a distant ancestor of modern Platt-Deutsch, Dutch, and Flemish.
merci bien
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Old November 24th, 2017, 11:06 PM   #57

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As a speaker of the Tudesque language I have a lot to say about all this.
I will as sonn I have time
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Old November 25th, 2017, 01:23 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Pacific_Victory View Post
Is this suggesting that Charlemagne changed the way the Francs expressed themselves? Surely the Emperor's Ripuarian roots and dialect couldn't change the entire language of the salian Frankish realm... or did it?
The Kingdom of the Franks was multiligual. In many parts, no germanic language was spoken at all. Even parts of the Mosel, around Bernkastel for example, were still speaking a romance language in the 10th century. By the time of the Treaty of Verdun, the central kingdom of Lothaire languages like Frisian were spoken in the north but the several predecessors of Standard Italian were spoken in the south.


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Originally Posted by Pacific_Victory View Post
Or perhaps this represents a replacement of the Salian Frankish dialect by the Ripuarian Frankish dialect as the prestige language of high nobility at the time of Charlemagne.
Language didn't have that sort of political weighting rather, latin and greek were still seen as languages of the learned with latin being the language of the church and legal systems.

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Furthermore, is the Tudesque as recorded at the time of the Serments de Strasbourg the descendant of Charlemagne's Ripuarian Frankish dialect (classified as a member of the High German group) or a descendant of the Salian Frankish (classified as Low German and in the same group as Dutch) presumably still spoken by the local population?
One has to be careful with the use of the term High German here. It is not to be confused with the Upper German or Oberdeutsch dialects of the south. Ripuarian is a central germanic dialect, spoken between the Benrath (maken/machen) line and north of the Speyer (appel/apfel) line. There are many of these middle german dialects. But, your point is interesting because although middle german is (almost) exclusively franconian, both upper and lower german dialect groups also have upper and lower franconian dialects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripuarian_language

This is the lords prayer in ripuarian::

Fater unsr,
thu in himilom bist,
giuuhit s namo thn,
quaeme rhhi thn,
uuerdhe uuilleo thn,
sama s in himile endi in erthu.
Broot unseraz emezzgaz gib uns hiutu,
endi farlz uns sculdhi unsero,
sama s uuir farlzzm scolm unserm,
endi ni gileidi unsih in costunga,
auh arlsi unsih fona ubile.


This is the Lords prayer in alemannic, an upper german dialect to the south of the middle german group.


Fater unseer,
thu pist in himile,
uuihi namun dinan,
qhueme rihhi din,
uuerde uuillo din,
so in himile sosa in erdu.
prooth unseer emezzihic kip uns hiutu,
oblaz uns sculdi unseero,
so uuir oblazem uns sculdikem,
enti ni unsih firleiti in khorunka,
uzzer losi unsih fona ubile.


The upper german dialects experience the high german consonant shifts b to p and g to k:

Broot unseraz emezzgaz gib uns hiutu,
prooth unseer emezzihic kip uns hiutu,


for the line which the modern english version uses, 'give us this day our daily bread'. This day means today which above is hiutu or modern day german heute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_G...onsonant_shift

Last edited by authun; November 25th, 2017 at 01:26 AM.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 08:14 AM   #59

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As a speaker of the Tudesque language I have a lot to say about all this.
I will as sonn I have time
There is no real Tudesque language. In the time of Charlemagne there was the language of the people and the language of the scholars-Latin.

The language of the people was Germanic: Frankish or Franconian, Saxon, Frisian.

At the end of the middle-age the French started to call everything German tudesque which has the same meaning as teutonic.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudesque

Last edited by Isleifson; November 25th, 2017 at 08:23 AM.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 08:23 AM   #60

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Originally Posted by authun View Post
The Kingdom of the Franks was multiligual. In many parts, no germanic language was spoken at all. Even parts of the Mosel, around Bernkastel for example, were still speaking a romance language in the 10th century. By the time of the Treaty of Verdun, the central kingdom of Lothaire languages like Frisian were spoken in the north but the several predecessors of Standard Italian were spoken in the south.




Language didn't have that sort of political weighting rather, latin and greek were still seen as languages of the learned with latin being the language of the church and legal systems.



One has to be careful with the use of the term High German here. It is not to be confused with the Upper German or Oberdeutsch dialects of the south. Ripuarian is a central germanic dialect, spoken between the Benrath (maken/machen) line and north of the Speyer (appel/apfel) line. There are many of these middle german dialects. But, your point is interesting because although middle german is (almost) exclusively franconian, both upper and lower german dialect groups also have upper and lower franconian dialects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripuarian_language

This is the lords prayer in ripuarian::

Fater unsr,
thu in himilom bist,
giuuhit s namo thn,
quaeme rhhi thn,
uuerdhe uuilleo thn,
sama s in himile endi in erthu.
Broot unseraz emezzgaz gib uns hiutu,
endi farlz uns sculdhi unsero,
sama s uuir farlzzm scolm unserm,
endi ni gileidi unsih in costunga,
auh arlsi unsih fona ubile.


This is the Lords prayer in alemannic, an upper german dialect to the south of the middle german group.


Fater unseer,
thu pist in himile,
uuihi namun dinan,
qhueme rihhi din,
uuerde uuillo din,
so in himile sosa in erdu.
prooth unseer emezzihic kip uns hiutu,
oblaz uns sculdi unseero,
so uuir oblazem uns sculdikem,
enti ni unsih firleiti in khorunka,
uzzer losi unsih fona ubile.


The upper german dialects experience the high german consonant shifts b to p and g to k:

Broot unseraz emezzgaz gib uns hiutu,
prooth unseer emezzihic kip uns hiutu,


for the line which the modern english version uses, 'give us this day our daily bread'. This day means today which above is hiutu or modern day german heute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_G...onsonant_shift
https://lb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eise_Papp

No problem for me to understand the ripuarian or the alemannic
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