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Old December 25th, 2017, 04:19 AM   #11

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Nazism was essentially racist fascism. Mussolini, Salazar, Franco, Galtieri, Pinochet, etc. were not racist per se, but they all had similarities in terms fo their anti-democracy, totalitarianism, and devotion to the state above all else.
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Old December 25th, 2017, 07:37 AM   #12
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Placing racial doctrine at the heart of both domestic and foreign policy. I'm not sure any other country has done that - ever.

All of their policies flowed from that core racial doctrine.

Generally, the Nazis were opportunists and made it up as they went along, but that racial doctrine was a constant.
I think that is a good point
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Old December 25th, 2017, 07:40 AM   #13
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Not all dictators nesscairly push towards Totalitarianism, often there is a corrupt cronyism and personnel/group "fiefdoms" (Under Hitler you could say Goering and Himmler had a degree of this) and it's not that easy to push though all layers and institutions. While others in Germany wanted a dictatorship, few planned to push though to the total; remake of society to subdue and incorporate almost everything in society into a function of the ruling group. The Nazis did, they took over everything, all marching bands, sports groups, hunting clubs, professional associations (almost all organisations no matter what purpose) had to be Nazified, brought into a single national organisation that was part of the Nazi party, their funds controlled by, membership controlled, leadership appointed.

Your run of the Mill Dictator normally stops at controlling the government, military, the police, and the money, the Nazis always planned to go all the way. The Scope and depth of their takeover was quite total.
Did they ? or was it opportunistic ?

Could you become, say, a judge or a mayor or any kind of "significant" government official if you were not a member of the nazi party ? I think in the USSR you just had to be a member of the communist party for those kinds of positions ?
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Old December 25th, 2017, 01:44 PM   #14
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. Nazismen is a form of fascism.
These are some typical features:
- The leader (furer) principle. A single leader who is dictator and is seen as almost godlike.
- Strong militarism. War is seen as a positive, almost a goal in it self.
- Strong focus on nationality and the etnic group as as as the most important group. The nation and race defines humans, not economic class.
- Racism is a very important, particularely anti-Semitism. Jews are seen as the root and cause of all (or almost all) evil.
- Glorification of a more or less imagined heroic past.

Last edited by Number24; December 25th, 2017 at 01:47 PM.
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Old December 25th, 2017, 01:52 PM   #15
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Did they ? or was it opportunistic ?
Nope its was policy from very early on.

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Could you become, say, a judge or a mayor or any kind of "significant" government official if you were not a member of the nazi party ? I think in the USSR you just had to be a member of the communist party for those kinds of positions ?
Which is why you can group both regimes under the banner of Totalitarianism. They both took over society form top to bottom.
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Old December 25th, 2017, 10:40 PM   #16
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They both took over society form top to bottom.
That's not necessarily true for Nazi Germany.

It was assumed for a long time that the Nazis coerced their people into spying on their families and neighbours in order to maintain control over them.

Recent research has shown that in actual fact the number of officials used to control large swathes of areas were relatively few, and the average German person willingly contacted officials with some story or other about their neighbours' indiscretions - usually it was settling old, petty scores.

German society wasn't controlled at the bottom as much as what was often assumed.
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Old December 25th, 2017, 11:59 PM   #17
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. Nazismen is a form of fascism.
These are some typical features:
1- The leader (furer) principle. A single leader who is dictator and is seen as almost godlike.
2- Strong militarism. War is seen as a positive, almost a goal in it self.
3- Strong focus on nationality and the etnic group as as as the most important group. The nation and race defines humans, not economic class.
4- Racism is a very important, particularely anti-Semitism. Jews are seen as the root and cause of all (or almost all) evil.
5- Glorification of a more or less imagined heroic past.
Those are good points ( I added numbers)... However several of them by themselves are rather common

Number 1 is fairly common ... one has only to name Absolutist monarchy

Number 2 I think the japanese had the same... Not sure about the US, some argue that it is the case for it as well.. In general up to WW1 militarism was quite common

Number 3 was the fashion in Europe since the French revolution (nationality).. The ethnic group is more complicated but it is also common ,especially for the smaller nations (or those wanting to become nations, such as the kurds today)

Number 4 I agree is very specific, especially the formalized anti semitism (anti semitism existed in many places before that, but it was not formalized , especially not to the extent that nazi Germany went to including attempts to "scientifically" demonstrate that jews were inferior)

Number 5 I think is fairly common to this day (especially for countries that are not as powerful as they once were )

One more point that has not been mentionned so far... What about mysticism and an attempt to create some sort of new religion by mixing concepts from old polytheism and christianity ? And perhaps a higher than usual obsession with all kinds of symbols
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Old December 26th, 2017, 12:14 AM   #18
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racial doctrine as defined by "pure blood" has been a common ingredient in history. The Visigoths defined themselves by such a term, and not to forget it was a central principle in the Spanish Inquisition as defined by the Dominicans.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 12:20 AM   #19
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racial doctrine as defined by "pure blood" has been a common ingredient in history. The Visigoths defined themselves by such a term, and not to forget it was a central principle in the Spanish Inquisition as defined by the Dominicans.
It has, and even today, or at least up until recently, it was difficult for say a Turk to attain German citizenship; the implication being that you have to be of a certain stock to be German.

Yet, how many nations have used racial doctrine to inform all facets of domestic and foreign policy? How many governments placed racial doctrine as their very reason for being?

I doubt few, if any - certainly in the modern world.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 12:28 AM   #20
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Those are good points ( I added numbers)... However several of them by themselves are rather common

Number 1 is fairly common ... one has only to name Absolutist monarchy

Number 2 I think the japanese had the same... Not sure about the US, some argue that it is the case for it as well.. In general up to WW1 militarism was quite common

Number 3 was the fashion in Europe since the French revolution (nationality).. The ethnic group is more complicated but it is also common ,especially for the smaller nations (or those wanting to become nations, such as the kurds today)

Number 4 I agree is very specific, especially the formalized anti semitism (anti semitism existed in many places before that, but it was not formalized , especially not to the extent that nazi Germany went to including attempts to "scientifically" demonstrate that jews were inferior)

Number 5 I think is fairly common to this day (especially for countries that are not as powerful as they once were )

One more point that has not been mentionned so far... What about mysticism and an attempt to create some sort of new religion by mixing concepts from old polytheism and christianity ? And perhaps a higher than usual obsession with all kinds of symbols
War was absolutely essential to the German psyche during the Nazi period. And, this comes back to racial doctrine. According to Nazi Germany the German race was in a battle for its existence and the world wasn't big enough for the German race and the Slavic race. One of them had to go.

In the days prior to the fall of Nazi Germany, Hitler and associates believed the German people deserved it for not being 'strong enough' to win their perceived battle with the Slavic race. It's why they had no qualms about Germans starving to death or their women being taken as the spoils of war or the place reduced to rubble. As far as they were concerned, they'd lost their battle of existence and according to their logic Germany didn't deserve a future because they'd proven themselves to be 'weak'.

This sort of logic is why the Germans weren't given an option to retreat and regroup at Stalingrad: it was a case of do or die in this supposed battle for existence.

Unfortunately for the average German, the Nazi leadership had read too much Darwin and cynically manipulated what he had to say for their own ends. Darwin of course didn't say anything that could possibly be interpreted as a battle for existence among human races/groups.
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