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Old January 21st, 2018, 03:12 PM   #51

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Originally Posted by TupSum View Post
Umm not to be picky or anything, but I disagree that the FYROMians called themselves for centuries macedonians.

During the Ottomans that region was called:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumelia

Later it was Vardar Banovina. I think the first campaign to make them connect themselves to Alexander was started by the Greek nationalists, who wanted to take that region into Greece after the liberation from the Ottomans. Later Tito actually for the first time officially put the name Macedonia on an administrative entity, in 1944-45 I think and started to "develop" a macedonian nation. Tito's motivation was to take over the entire macedonian region, which is actually what makes greeks so uneasy.

Do you have any links to documents that say that place was administratively called macedonia during ottoman times?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedo...ion)#Etymology
This article states that the name Macedonia for the region was revived only in the 19th century while previously it was seldomly used for a long period of time. So we're both kind of right, I guess? Admitedly I wasn't too familiar with the situation beforehand.

As a side note, fun fact if you will, Yugoslavia was offered at least part of Greek Macedonia just prior to ww2 (the port of Salonika and access to the Aegean sea). I think it was part of Hitler's plan to lure Yugoslavia into joining the tripartite pact.
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Old January 21st, 2018, 04:03 PM   #52

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IMO it is of no use to demand of FYROM to denounce the Macedonia part of the name but they could add something to distinguish it, but in a way that pleases both sides, especially Macedonians. In the end it's easy for Greece to say go call yourself something else, but the people will then be stuck with a name they don't identify with, feel no connection to, no pride etc. That's why this matter is to be dealt with delicately. In the end, whether it will be called New Macedonia, Northern Macedonia, Vardar Macedonia or whatever, everyone's going to call it Macedonia anyway. Makes you doubt mankind sanity a bit, doesn't it ... (I've been waiting to use this smiley properly for a long time)

Hopefully they can figure it out soon and in a way that will please all sides.
Agreed, this is a very reasonable opinion. In fact, this is the base of the current talks between the two governments to finally end this silly dispute. A mixed name for all purposes, that will include "Macedonia" and some other specific distinction before it. Nova Macedonia or Vardar Macedonia are in my opinion the best, as "Northern" insinuates some sort of division from the "Southern".

Ironically, these are the exact names that FYR Macedonia was proposing in the very first years of this dispute, right after Greece refused to recognise it under the name "Macedonia". But we had some very incompetent politicians back then, especially a foreign minister that used the nationalistic agenda to boost his own popularity among right-wing and ultra conservatives circles, and went on to demand that no "Macedonia" whatsoever should be included in the name of the neighbouring country. He was also our Prime minister before the current one. So from the Greek side, the time for a solution is right now, with a progressive government having succeeded a very conservative one.

The time is right also regarding the other side, as a sensible new government has succeeded the ultra-nationalist one of Gruevski, who took the reins of FYR Macedonia after the initial hard stance adopted by the Greek government of the 90's. He escalated the rhetoric, refused every other name that would specify or limit Macedonia, and insisted on the term "Macedonia" alone. He also launched a major archaeolatric crusade with monuments and names of Alexander and Phillip throughout his country, and an international pseudo-scientific campaign orchestrated by the diaspora of his country, to further the history-mongering agenda. Sad times.

I am cautiously optimistic at the moment, though hard nationalists linger on both sides of the borders, and both governments are currently rather weak for this or that reason. Already they have mobilised in Greece, with a fairly large demonstration taking place in Thessaloniki today, taken right out from similar ones in the 90's. The same slogans, the same organisations, parties and institutions supporting the same rhetoric. Very retro . The opposition will find a very handy thorn to twist in the side of the current government, already very weakened by the economic measures it was forced to adopt during these last two years. The very same opposition that as a government in the 90's perpetuated this dispute.
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Old January 21st, 2018, 04:30 PM   #53

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However, FYROM could have at least distinguished itself from the Greek part of Macedonia historically and geographically. At the very least, the Greeks have some valid reasons to demand that. I mean to say, it is not merely the imagination of the Greeks that the rhetoric of their northern neighbors has at times been irridentist. The line of thought coming from people in FYROM is: "we are Macedonians, your region is Macedonia, so that region and its history is ours." So sure, we can easily see the claims of Alexander the Great on the part of FYROM as self ridicule. But we should not forget that this claim has an irridentist element hidden into it. I would say that the context in how the name has been used by Greece's Northern neighbors is very important here.
I have also seen on the internet a lot of people confusing the ancient Macedonians and their history with the modern FYR Macedonians, who are widely referred to as simply "Macedonians". For a person not that interested in history to do some research, the equation comes very easily to mind, since both are called "Macedonians": "So Alexander and Phillip of Macedon, as well as the conquest of Persia, were all related to the modern country named after them", goes the public thinking that cares little for details and further study. And we all know how many people are like that, preferring simplifying solutions and answers to the complexities of history. And I suspect this is exactly what the former ultra-nationalist government of FYR Macedonia was seeking, in its rejection of any other name that would limit or specify the term "Macedonia". Not just irredentism, but history-mongering as well.

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Originally Posted by TupSum View Post
Umm not to be picky or anything, but I disagree that the FYROMians called themselves for centuries macedonians.

During the Ottomans that region was called:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumelia

Later it was Vardar Banovina. I think the first campaign to make them connect themselves to Alexander was started by the Greek nationalists, who wanted to take that region into Greece after the liberation from the Ottomans. Later Tito actually for the first time officially put the name Macedonia on an administrative entity, in 1944-45 I think and started to "develop" a macedonian nation. Tito's motivation was to take over the entire macedonian region, which is actually what makes greeks so uneasy.

Do you have any links to documents that say that place was administratively called macedonia during ottoman times?
In fact, the story behind this whole thing is a conundrum touching almost every aspect of Balkan history during the last two centuries. Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs, all played their part in creating it. In a sense, the people of FYR Macedonia became a pawn in the power struggles of those three nations, wanting to expand their own control of the region of Macedonia and exclude the other ones.

It makes a very interesting historical read, and it would be a good time when it becomes limited to strictly that, with no negative repercussions on actual people living in the area.
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Old January 21st, 2018, 07:22 PM   #54

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It makes a very interesting historical read, and it would be a good time when it becomes limited to strictly that, with no negative repercussions on actual people living in the area.
Well, some people in that area celebrate an organization called VMRO Ilinden with this poster:

Click the image to open in full size.

The picture is from 1923 of course, but includes Pirin Macedonia and all of the Greek part too.

some caution is probably quite reasonable.

Here their flag:
Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by TupSum; January 21st, 2018 at 07:24 PM.
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Old January 21st, 2018, 07:28 PM   #55
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This whole thread belongs to current events. Yesterday our own 'golden dawn' like political party VMRO (IMRO) issued a statement regarding name dispute. Quite unexpected i should say - rough translation follows

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Those who protest today in Thessaloniki are not quite right. We, the Bulgarians, naturally stand behind our brothers in Macedonia in the name dispute. And we want a solution to this dispute. But without anger. No one can deprive people from Macedonia to use the name that our common ancestors used.
But why then does Athens claim to monopolize this name? Have not thousands of people dying with this name, who today you love to call "Slavic-speaking Hellenes"? Will not their heirs have the right to call their place of birth with the name they called their ancestors?
Now is the time to remind ourselves: friends, Greeks, our coat of arms has three lions - Moesia, Thrace and Macedonia. Do not forget that when you harassing Macedonia, you are harassing us. And we are not afraid of that. Because we remember our history.
?????, ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????????! /bulgarian source/
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Old January 21st, 2018, 07:45 PM   #56

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Originally Posted by At Each Kilometer View Post
Yesterday our own 'golden dawn' like political party VMRO (IMRO) issued a statement regarding name dispute. Quite unexpected i should say - rough translation follows
Lol, some of them demanding Greece to change their name to Byzantium



Who put these clowns in the parliament though. I strongly suspect the long arm of Moscow.
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Old January 21st, 2018, 09:03 PM   #57
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A website in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) on Thursday published the five names it claims United Nations negotiator Matthew Nimetz brought to table in talks the previous day between representatives from Athens and Skopje.

According to the website mkd.mk, Nimetz proposed: Republika Nova Makedonija (Republic of New Macedonia); Republika Severna Makedonija (Republic of Northern Macedonia), Republika Gorna Makedonija (Republic of Upper Macedonia); Republika Vardarska Makedonija (Republic of Vardar Macedonia) and Republika Makedonija (Skopje) (Republic of Macedonia [Skopje]).
FYROM media reports UN mediator?s name proposals | News | ekathimerini.com

EDIT: The only sound proposal from the listed above is the first one - Republika Nova Makedonija (Republic of New Macedonia). Northern and upper ones imply that there are another parts of geographical and historical region of the balkan peninsula with the same name that are not parts of this state. Same with skopje one i guess and vardarska is offensive(?) term for FYROM.

EDIT 2: Apparently they are all offensive to someone, but obviously compromise must be made to end this era of isolationism.

Last edited by At Each Kilometer; January 21st, 2018 at 09:54 PM.
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Old January 21st, 2018, 10:41 PM   #58

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Originally Posted by At Each Kilometer View Post
FYROM media reports UN mediator?s name proposals | News | ekathimerini.com

EDIT: The only sound proposal from the listed above is the first one - Republika Nova Makedonija (Republic of New Macedonia). Northern and upper ones imply that there are another parts of geographical and historical region of the balkan peninsula with the same name that are not parts of this state. Same with skopje one i guess and vardarska is offensive(?) term for FYROM.

EDIT 2: Apparently they are all offensive to someone, but obviously compromise must be made to end this era of isolationism.
Good old Balkans, everything is offensive to someone. It never disapoints.
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Old January 21st, 2018, 11:53 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Shtajerc View Post
Good old Balkans, everything is offensive to someone. It never disapoints.


http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/blog...ng-god-himself

Last edited by At Each Kilometer; January 22nd, 2018 at 12:27 AM.
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Old January 22nd, 2018, 12:34 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Solidaire View Post
I have also seen on the internet a lot of people confusing the ancient Macedonians and their history with the modern FYR Macedonians, who are widely referred to as simply "Macedonians". For a person not that interested in history to do some research, the equation comes very easily to mind, since both are called "Macedonians": "So Alexander and Phillip of Macedon, as well as the conquest of Persia, were all related to the modern country named after them", goes the public thinking that cares little for details and further study. And we all know how many people are like that, preferring simplifying solutions and answers to the complexities of history. And I suspect this is exactly what the former ultra-nationalist government of FYR Macedonia was seeking, in its rejection of any other name that would limit or specify the term "Macedonia". Not just irredentism, but history-mongering as well.
Sure one can confuse some people who are not very interested in history. But one can not change history. This is what it boils down to. The ones most victimized of the manipulation of history are the Slav Macedonians themselves. They constantly will have to confront historical facts which are not in line with the historical narrative which was fed to them. This can even impact the national psyche in a negative way. It is best to ignore it altogether. On the other hand, a person in Bulgaria does not wake up less happy because he does not consider himself to be an Ancient Macedonian. It is irrelevant to him.
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