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Old December 31st, 2017, 03:31 AM   #1

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The truth about the welsh that fought Wallace..


Many scots seem to think the welsh were happy to fight with the English against Wallace but this was far from the case.

Wales was at the time fresh from conquest and suffering extreme hardships and slaughter.
Many of the Welshmen that come to Scotland with Edward had no choice.

One thing for sure though.. they were hard bloody work as the quote below will tell you.

Those 'bloody welsh'
"Provisions became scarce in Edward’s camp at Kirkliston and the fleet from Berwick was anxiously looked for. The surrounding country, having been many times wasted by fire and sword (by Wallace), had English soldiers complaining bitterly of their scanty provender, and a change of quarters was contemplated. Only a small supply was received as the great body of the fleet was still being detained by adverse winds. A dangerous mutiny broke out in the English ranks.


Under his banner, Edward had vast numbers of Welsh bowmen, led by their chiefs, whom he had recently subjected to his stern sway. The famine was allowed, to be pressed hardest on the Welsh before the English. A supply of wine sent to them brought on a crisis and during the ride north. Edwards new Welsh archers got into a killing fight with the English soldiers, which nearly broke up the whole invasion force in a sudden paroxysm of national antipathy. The Welsh turned upon the English in their tents at night. Edward’s trumpets sounded promptly to the horse and charging the Welsh he slew more than eighty of them and eventually restored order. Exasperated and sullen, the Welsh chieftains now openly threatened to join Wallace.



“Let them do so,” said Edward scornfully; “let them go over to my enemies. I hope soon to see the day when I shall Chastise them both”. "
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Old December 31st, 2017, 05:51 AM   #2

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Edward`s army which mustered at Roxburgh during June 1298 was an impressive one. As well as 3000 cavalry, the army comprised 10,900 Welsh infantry and 14,800 English foot soldiers. Because of a lack of supplies and the drunken mutiny of his Welsh troops, Edward moved his army to Edinburgh to obtain victuals. It was there that he received new that the Scottish army led by Wallace was drawing near. Edward moved his force to a position at Falkirk near Linlithgow, there to await the approach of the Scottish host.

Wallace formed his infantry into four defensive formations known as schiltroms. The English prised open these defensive formations, either by archery by the infantry according to one account, or by converging cavalry attacks by another. The Welsh troops were bystanders during the initial fighting, but joined in the pursuit of the Scots when it became evident the English were winning.

Edward did not use Welsh troops during his next major campaign in Scotland during 1300, no doubt wary of there dubious usefulness.
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Old January 27th, 2018, 06:37 AM   #3
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Hi there.
I'm obvioysly not an expert in the period or english kings and stuff. But every time I read about it, it calls my atention the level of detail in which historical facts got recorded (names of particular fighters, precise places, how things went on battle, etc.)
Do you know about any movie fairly telling these Edward-Wallace war?? (I 'm already aware of the "mistakes" in THAT particular movie.)
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Old January 27th, 2018, 11:10 AM   #4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by maTiasddsm View Post
Hi there.
I'm obvioysly not an expert in the period or english kings and stuff. But every time I read about it, it calls my atention the level of detail in which historical facts got recorded (names of particular fighters, precise places, how things went on battle, etc.)
Do you know about any movie fairly telling these Edward-Wallace war?? (I 'm already aware of the "mistakes" in THAT particular movie.)
Apart from the movie you hint at, I know of no such movie. However, if one were to be made it would, no doubt, depict Edward I as evil, which was far from the case. Indeed, historical fact can often be deliberately distorted such as exaggerating the number of Welsh archers in medieval wars. There were some, but the preferred weapon of the North Welsh was the spear. It is likely therefore that most of the Welsh troops in Edward`s army that invaded Scotland would have been spearmen.
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Old January 27th, 2018, 06:09 PM   #5
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in modern Scotland Edward Ist ''Hammer of the Scots' is regarded with contempt although scholarly obejctivity forces one to acknowledge that he was a formidable warrior..
However, in our unofficial Scottish national anthem 'FLOWER OF SCOTLAD'' we Scots gleefully celebrate Wallace's successor King Robert Bruce and his troops giving Edward's son and successor Edward II a good hiding at Bannockburn near Stirling on June 24 1314 where our independence was secured and we avoided the fate of the Irsh and Welsh as conquered nations.-even Cromwell couldn't make his conquest of Scotland stick.-despite all those Scots Pows skeletons lying in County Durham, and despite te Battle of Flodden in 1517 when Scottish King James IV and 400 Scots kinights and nobles were slaughtered by English King Henry VIII 's army.
When Scotland finally united with England in 1707 he English had to concede that we retained , free from English jursdiction or interference -A-Our national religion which was Presbyterian (although Wallace and Bruce were both Roman Caatholics. and Scotland was an RC country until the Scottish Reformation in 1560.
B-OUR separate legal system -both criminal and civil- were and are also guarantedd searae from English law so we still gave a radicaly differnt criminal and civill aw system from England.while poor old Wales's crminal and civil law systems were subordinated completely to England after conquest.
Our education system is also diifferent and outwith ENGLISH CONTROL
None of these things would have happened had Edward Ist had his way with Scotland.
Regarding the movie 'Braveheart ' it is good entertainment if you ask Scots but very inaccurate historically ..
A-Wallace and his troops who defeated the English at Stirling bridge never wore warpaint as shown in the movie and Wallace was much more sophisticated than the way he was portrayed in the movie-as letters between Wallace and German merchants in Hamburg and the Hanseatic league ports of north Germany which are in the National Library n Edinburgh .Letters that show far from being the ferocious, feral savage of the movie Wallace was trying to establish trade links with the Germans.
Again, Edward IST may have had Walace hung drawn and qurateted in London but Wallace has long had the last laugh over Edward Longshanks as the truly magnificent Wallace monument dominates the horizon for miles in modern Scotland-no memorials exist to Edward IST of comparable grandeur.
Regarding the Welsh, England using Celts against Celts was a favourite tactic of the English for centuries see Ireland where Scots were used to fight the Irish seeking independence-it was simply DIVIDE ET IMPERIUM -'Divide and Rule'.
Wallace was betrayed by Scots quislings in English pay so the use of Welsh troops was just par for the course..
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Old January 28th, 2018, 06:01 AM   #6

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Quote:
Regarding the Welsh, England using Celts against Celts was a favourite tactic of the English for centuries see Ireland where Scots were used to fight the Irish seeking independence-it was simply DIVIDE ET IMPERIUM -'Divide and Rule'.
To infer there was a centuries long policy or conspiracy by the English to use the tactic of divide and rule in order to control the so called Celtic races is stretching credibility.
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Old February 8th, 2018, 12:26 PM   #7

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There's alot of fluffy propaganda surrounding the Bruce...what is less well publicised is the brutal war/s that opened up a ''second front'' to pursue his own claims in Ireland, shortly after Bannockburn in 1314.

Edward the Bruce led a vicious campaign against both Irish and Scots there, ending in his death there in 1318...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_campaign_in_Ireland
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Old February 9th, 2018, 01:58 AM   #8

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyH View Post
There's alot of fluffy propaganda surrounding the Bruce...what is less well publicised is the brutal war/s that opened up a ''second front'' to pursue his own claims in Ireland, shortly after Bannockburn in 1314.

Edward the Bruce led a vicious campaign against both Irish and Scots there, ending in his death there in 1318...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_campaign_in_Ireland
Damned Norman

(Something else kept quiet)
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Old February 9th, 2018, 11:17 AM   #9

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyH View Post
There's alot of fluffy propaganda surrounding the Bruce...what is less well publicised is the brutal war/s that opened up a ''second front'' to pursue his own claims in Ireland, shortly after Bannockburn in 1314.

Edward the Bruce led a vicious campaign against both Irish and Scots there, ending in his death there in 1318...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_campaign_in_Ireland
This fluffy propaganda also obscures the fact that Robert Bruce was according to law a traitor, having raised a rebellion against his liege lord, Edward I, to whom he had pledged homage. If Edward I could be described as ruthless at times, Bruce was more so, being guilty of murder to pursue his own ends.
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Old February 9th, 2018, 04:09 PM   #10

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Its an interesting question isnt it.

If Alex 3 could have kept it in his pants and not tried to drive home in the dark.

If Norwegian Doctors were halfway competent and Margaret would have lived.

If the Scots border lords would have stopped their jostling and prevented the border disputes of 1290, including the invasion of England and particularly the Berwick massacres

If the Scottish lords had been less obsessed with their internal squabbles and more aware that they were poking the bear when they were ignoring an empire building sociopath like longshanks.

Plus that whole thing about getting obsessed with internal politics and inviting in an empire building sociopath like Edward Ist in order to assert a new second rank King, since Scotland recognised Edd 1 as the high King already.
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