Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 3rd, 2018, 11:10 AM   #11
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: Belgium
Posts: 1,256

Quote:
Originally Posted by authun View Post
That rather depends on which gemanic traditions you refer to. They change over time. The germanic tribes of Tacitus' time are very different from the 5th century. The Franks of the 8th century are very different from the Saxon Confederation of the 8th century, or the Scandinavia groups. The influence of Rome, of Christianity, of schooling and of heredity authority which carried with it international recognition does not affect all the germanic tribes. On the other hand, many early germanic traditions persist, hence the introduction of wergilds into the various law codes and the retention of certain aspects of paganism.

Tacitus wrote in the first century: "They choose their kings by birth, their generals for merit. These kings have not unlimited or arbitrary power, and the generals do more by example than by authority." During the early Merovingian dynasty, the Mayor held as much power as the King. It's a far cry from feudalism at that point. Feudalism is claimed to start when the Mayor Charles Martel becomes the defacto ruler and later when the title becomes a hereditary one sanctioned by the Pope. Groups like the Saxon confederation however are still continuing with earlier models where authority is derived from the leadership qualities of individuals.

An analogy would be to ask if paganism influenced christianity. Christianity in the west grew as pagans converted and the fundamental concept of Christianity required that pagan idols be discarded. Yet we stll find lots of fossils to paganism in western christianity. There is an influence, but it would be wrong to say Christianity grew out of paganism.
Authun,

thanks for this message and it is an introduction for what I yesterday read.
Coincidentally, while there is at this same time a debate on the French Passion Histoire about the origin of the Western Feudalism, I did some research on the internet. In the time of the BBC history board I did already research and I recall that there was said that one of the origins was the existing Roman infrastructure now in turmoil from the fifth to the ninth century. And as the central ruling didn't exist anymore the former "latifundia", as they had already that system from before, the local landlord with his "clientes", this system evolved in these troubled times in a kind of lord-vassal relation.
From the Germanic side and even from the Gaulish side, this kind of lord-vassal relation had in the beginning not to make with land gifts, but more with gifts nothing to do with land, while land in these early times was a common property. It was only later when the "king" emerged from those Germanic peoples, considering his land as his own property, that the king could give land in "fief" to people worthwhile in his eyes to receive it. These people I suppose! could then give parts of these fiefs to others in the same lord-vassal relation? And so Feodalism was born.

I found this in preparation for Passion Histoire today.
European Feudalism
From this link
Use the cursor to let the dark tekst appear in light blue and white..
"The Development of European Feudalism The first elements of European Feudalism appeared in France and Germany in the 9th and 10th centuries. This coincided with the great military force organised by the Normans. Elements of the Roman regime were transferred to European feudalism. Roman villas and their lands were granted to military leaders on a temporary basis as a reward for their loyalty to Rome and the emperor. It was also traditional for Romans to surround themselves with loyal soldiers who provided a substantial fighting force and offered protection. These ideas were adopted in Europe. European nobles increased their power from grants of land from the king in return for military service. European feudalism was born."

And the "about us"
Siteseen Ltd

And a French language site: Encyclopédie Imagomundi
This article is more in depth but in French and there is not a "source" and not a "name", the same as for the former link!
Origine et formation du système féodal en France.
And the "about us" says something that it is a personal site from a non-specialist, who treats the subjects as honest as possible.
Courrier.

Authun, as these are not authorative sites as Jstor and all, aren't there not more scientific articles with an author and a source, which are more the normal scientific and historical approach?

I know, some personal amateur historians are sometimes better than the official ones, but in my opinion they have to be debated on university level to come to a conclusion or the agreement that there is not yet a conclusion possible.

Kind regards, Paul.
PaulRyckier is offline  
Remove Ads
Old January 3rd, 2018, 11:11 AM   #12

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 22,591
Blog Entries: 19

Probably it was a meeting between the Germanic tradition and the Roman habit to have "clients". The "Barbarian" Lord surrounded himself with loyal "friends", the Roman men of power surrounded themselves with political clients.

In the Roman-Barbarian kingdoms these traditions mixed together, gathering, joining and generating the feudal system.
AlpinLuke is online now  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 11:15 AM   #13
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: Belgium
Posts: 1,256

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
Probably it was a meeting between the Germanic tradition and the Roman habit to have "clients". The "Barbarian" Lord surrounded himself with loyal "friends", the Roman men of power surrounded themselves with political clients.

In the Roman-Barbarian kingdoms these traditions mixed together, gathering, joining and generating the feudal system.
AlpinLuke, my dear, how you did it, to summarize only in three sentences what I tried to explain painstakenly in three quarters of an hour...

Kind regards from Paul.
PaulRyckier is offline  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 11:29 AM   #14

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 22,591
Blog Entries: 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulRyckier View Post
AlpinLuke, my dear, how you did it, to summarize only in three sentences what I tried to explain painstakenly in three quarters of an hour...

Kind regards from Paul.
Eh ... I leave to you the glory of an extended and erudite explanation ... it happens I use synthesis ...

Congratulation for the great contribution.
AlpinLuke is online now  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:34 PM   #15

dreuxeng's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2015
From: England
Posts: 1,263

‘…the Normans had no clear cut scheme of social relationships which could be applied to the peasantry of a conquered country. There was no Norman stock of well-defined terms which the Domesday clerks could use for the drawing of distinctions between one class of peasant and another.’
dreuxeng is offline  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 01:08 PM   #16

dreuxeng's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2015
From: England
Posts: 1,263

The Romans were a republic, a republican empire, and then a monarchal empire, made up of provinces and thereby the occupation of specific areas of land. It is defence of a people via a king or (over)lord, that is a key relate-able feature between peoples during the early medieval post Roman world. I agree, it appears that Germanic feudalism evolved entirely independently from the Roman world.
dreuxeng is offline  
Old January 4th, 2018, 01:34 AM   #17

johnincornwall's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Nov 2010
From: Cornwall
Posts: 6,615

Quote:
Originally Posted by milstrom View Post
So there there was no significant presence of germanic tradition, law etc in Visigothic Spain?
Yes of course there was. I don't think anybody made more laws to be honest in the ever-more hysterical attempts to control a dissolving kingdom. Then of course they were resurrected by Leon in later centuries and everybody wanted to be of Visigothic descent.

I was talking about the language. Whereas the Saxons brought their language to England the Visigoths had been inside the Empire for some centuries. Garcia Moreno opines that they spoke vulgar latin and used Roman arms styles sometime from their first incorporation in Roman armies

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreuxeng View Post
The Romans were a republic, a republican empire, and then a monarchal empire, made up of provinces and thereby the occupation of specific areas of land. It is defence of a people via a king or (over)lord, that is a key relate-able feature between peoples during the early medieval post Roman world. I agree, it appears that Germanic feudalism evolved entirely independently from the Roman world.
And yet - bear in mind my Spanish bias here - give or take the odd wanton transient destruction from Vandals and Swabians in the North West, Roman fincas were still in existence when they were either taken over by Visigothic landowners OR still held by their old Hispano-Roman owners, who also were part of Visigothic society.

So these same fincas, with the same workers (be they slaves or free men) fincas and the retainers of the owners passed fairly seemlessly into society of the Visigothic Kingdom which lasted around 200 years.

And the landowners gather up their men and assemble when the army requires (in theory) feudal-style. And we then call it proto-feudal. Or eventually feudal. And there is no connection?

Just askin!

Last edited by johnincornwall; January 4th, 2018 at 01:41 AM.
johnincornwall is offline  
Old January 4th, 2018, 02:26 AM   #18
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,498

Quote:
Originally Posted by milstrom View Post
So there there was no significant presence of germanic tradition, law etc in Visigothic Spain?

You can see the contents of the law code of Visigothic Spain. Nothing particularly germanic about it.

http://libro.uca.edu/vcode/index.pdf
authun is offline  
Old January 4th, 2018, 02:59 AM   #19

Rodger's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2014
From: US
Posts: 4,408

The Magdeburg law helped to fuel and maintain feudalism, especially in the lands that are now Poland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdeburg_rights
Rodger is offline  
Old January 4th, 2018, 03:15 AM   #20

dreuxeng's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2015
From: England
Posts: 1,263

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnincornwall View Post
Yes of course there was. I don't think anybody made more laws to be honest in the ever-more hysterical attempts to control a dissolving kingdom. Then of course they were resurrected by Leon in later centuries and everybody wanted to be of Visigothic descent.

I was talking about the language. Whereas the Saxons brought their language to England the Visigoths had been inside the Empire for some centuries. Garcia Moreno opines that they spoke vulgar latin and used Roman arms styles sometime from their first incorporation in Roman armies

And yet - bear in mind my Spanish bias here - give or take the odd wanton transient destruction from Vandals and Swabians in the North West, Roman fincas were still in existence when they were either taken over by Visigothic landowners OR still held by their old Hispano-Roman owners, who also were part of Visigothic society.

So these same fincas, with the same workers (be they slaves or free men) fincas and the retainers of the owners passed fairly seemlessly into society of the Visigothic Kingdom which lasted around 200 years.

And the landowners gather up their men and assemble when the army requires (in theory) feudal-style. And we then call it proto-feudal. Or eventually feudal. And there is no connection?

Just askin!
Sure, we can claim the cloak of the mists of time for origins! But, if feudalism emerges and is established entirely independently from Roman influence, and in several areas and regions, the fact that Roman influence is present in any other separate location, appears to challenge the received view.
dreuxeng is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
feudalism, germanic, influence



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What is the difference between Feudalism and Bastard Feudalism? grey fox Medieval and Byzantine History 6 November 7th, 2017 07:23 PM
How was European Feudalism different from Japanese Feudalism? grey fox General History 11 October 9th, 2017 04:45 PM
How did Anglo-Saxon Feudalism before 1066 differ from Frankish Feudalism in England? grey fox Medieval and Byzantine History 4 May 4th, 2017 01:06 AM
Feudalism and Bastard Feudalism ballygowan History Help 10 December 30th, 2014 11:19 AM
Augustus' influence on Germanic front Alcibiades European History 2 January 13th, 2012 06:53 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.