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Old January 4th, 2018, 04:20 PM   #31

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Originally Posted by dreuxeng Click the image to open in full size.
The details of the TodayIFoundOut article are drawn almost entirely from a Guardian article of 2012. Not really very university so to speak! Not really much in the way of Stenton, Chambers, or Tout etc etc then or now.
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So what? Are you claiming it is inaccurate? Why would someone like Stenton, if you mean Frank Stenton that is, write about modern day land tenure statistics? or the other two for that matter. Perhaps you can provide references to any of your authors any data on the current state of land ownership in the UK.

Or maybe you just didn't comprehend my first sentance, "It still is" which does require some numbers on how much land is owned by a few people. If the Guardian got it wrong, I'm sure you will furnish us with a more accurate assessment.
'So what' !!! .... how are you saying that? Is that causing trouble. Are you going to make my day?

We have to know some things, some stuff, before we post, and engage in discussion and debate, basically. Sir Frank Stenton's book Anglo-Saxon England is a central text, for example, on the subject, and which includes an assessment of the 'Anglo-Norman State'.

The source for the article was a Guardian article. That should be enough.

There was nothing, whatsoever or in any way remotely factual or correct in that article. Whoever owns the land of England as of 2012 absolutely did not inherit it from the land distributed out after the Conquest. Many Anglo-Saxon sheriffs, aeldormen etc were kept on after the conquest. Grants given to Norman knights or nobility, by charter, were quite simply not inheritable in many instances. And this continues further in to the Middle Ages. A king and his court is also a regime.

Stenton has these kinds of things, as does any number of other medieval scholars and academics. What are my sources: Stenton. I've noticed people often use surnames to refer to authors.

Melissa's source was obviously the Guardian article, but the guy who wrote the article for the Guardian! Did the editorial team fact check it. No sir, they did not. What were his sources?
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Old January 4th, 2018, 04:43 PM   #32
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'So what' !!! .... how are you saying that? Is that causing trouble. Are you going to make my day?
So what? Read what I wrote to Paul Rykier. It was a comment about the present situation in England. What have Stenton, Chambers, or Tout have to do with the present day land tenure in England? Have they ever written anything about it? Has what they written about the history alter the modern data?

If you have got a point to make, make it. Bombastic comments like the above really are a joke.

Specifically, answer the question. If data in article is wrong, tell us where the error is. You can't expect anyone to believe it is just because you say it is. Provide details.
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Old January 4th, 2018, 06:09 PM   #33

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Stenton talks about continuity from the Anglo-Saxon to the Norman period.

'That a prelate of King Edward's appointment should have been given such varied authority in so wide a region is the clearest proof that could be given of the Conqueror's wish to preserve the English tradition in government.' (Stenton 1943, 624).

'From first to last he insisted on the principle that every Frenchman [of whom Normans were dominant] to whom he gave an Englishman's estate should hold it with all the rights, and subject to all the obligations, that had been attached to it at the beginning of 1066.' (Stenton 1943, 624).
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Old January 4th, 2018, 06:26 PM   #34

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^ Evaluation through the lens of the boy cried wolf may be a recommendable device.

Whatever next?
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Old January 4th, 2018, 06:56 PM   #35

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^ Of course there was only about 50 members of the HoL in about 1500, a half of whom were bishops.

Mr Rayleigh, Mr Drake, Mr Willoughby...
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Old January 4th, 2018, 07:02 PM   #36

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In my dictionary bombastic means sounding impressive but insincere or meaningless. I thought it was being and could only be understood as being sociable (or humourous).
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Old January 5th, 2018, 02:09 AM   #37
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Stenton talks about continuity from the Anglo-Saxon to the Norman period.
Yes I know but what has that to do with my reply to Paul Ryckier about the present state of land tenure in England? "It still is", clearly refers to the present, a point you seem to have missed.

Your interjection was to simply say that the data provided, which was compiled from information lodged with the Land Registry was wrong, because it was reported by the Guardian, and you name a couple of authors who write about a different era as if that should suffice. I ask yet again, how does anything that they have written about the transition from Anglo Saxon to Norman England cast doubt on the modern data from the Land Registry? Moreover, as you say that data is wrong, you must have alternative data and will you kindly reproduce that data and show where the error is?
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Old January 5th, 2018, 02:15 AM   #38

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In anglo saxon england, much land was still allodial land, ie independent of a superior landlord and was effectively land owned by one particular man without any conditions. It was his. This was taken by William after the conquest when he confiscated much of it and handed it to his followers in exchange for fealty and promises of military and other services. They could lose tenure and if they didn't comply and effectively all land was the king's possession with no allodial land at all. This is the difference between the two.
Allodial title is first attested in Domesday,

J.C. Holt states that "In Normandy the word alodium, whatever its sense in other parts of the Continent, meant not land held free of seigneurial services, but land held by hereditary right," and that "alodium and feodum should be given the same meaning in England."

Under English law you can get the freehold by Adverse possession/squatters rights, normally 12 years, 25 years for crown lands.

Possession is nine-tenths of the law.

Usucapio

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usucapio
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Old January 5th, 2018, 02:29 AM   #39
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In my dictionary bombastic means sounding impressive but insincere or meaningless.
"'So what' !!! .... how are you saying that? Is that causing trouble. Are you going to make my day?"

was not answering the question 'so what?' It is an insincere and meaningless reply. To claim that is was a jocular answer to my question is not convincing.

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Old January 5th, 2018, 03:25 AM   #40

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You can see the contents of the law code of Visigothic Spain. Nothing particularly germanic about it.

http://libro.uca.edu/vcode/index.pdf
I like the bit about removing your daughter from the hands of a ravisher.

The mind boggles

Edit - just been through it in full and I do recognise a lot of those laws - especially the later ones about Jews, Compulsory call to arms, property etc. It's actually really interesting. It's so long because kings kept adding stuff on, especially Chindasvinto, Ervigio and Egica in the later years.

The odd thing is that these laws depended on the king and councils enforcing them one way or another. So the strongest, usually the King's party, just dod what they want!

Worth noting that in practice freemen had the same life as slaves. A slave could be made free but was forbidden to leave the finca/village/family fort with any of his family or any goods. And wasn't paid either. Great.

Also worth noting that in the rise of the Cluny thinking on religion and laws, the pressure was to move to Roman rites rather than those nasty, heretical, part-pagan, Visigothic ceremonies. This was around the milennium and on.

It's also worth noting that the Visigothic population of Spain was around 10% (estimate). Even less in the lands of Asturias where the Visigoths had difficulty establishing order - precisely where the new Christian kingdoms arose. A few may have moved north, but as time went on it was very fashionable lets say to suddenly find yourself with a Visigothic-sounding name to get on and influence people!

Last edited by johnincornwall; January 5th, 2018 at 03:37 AM.
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