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Old January 9th, 2018, 11:10 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by PaulRyckier View Post
And was amazed that I could read quotations from the Paston letters in the author's book. Even I understood it with my poor knowledge of English...
You write well so you shouldn't be surprised. Were they in modern english or middle english? Middle english, the time of Chaucer, is inflected but the inflections have mostly disappeared by the time of Shakespeare. The Paston letters are important in the study of these changes. This is from William Paston to John Stanford in 1425, an enquiry about how stone for building work should be cut:

"To my weel beloued John Staynford of Furnyvales Inne. že instruccion to comune of to John Robynson of Carleton bysyde Snayth. To [unclear] enquerre and wyte whether že stoon may be sawed or nought, and whether it wille chippe or chynne or affraye with frost or weder or water. Al-so žat euery pece of že stoon be iij foote longe and žat xv tunne tyght [unclear] of že stoon be euery stoon weel bedded in-to že walle and a foote thikke žat it ryse in heighte a foote in že walle, and x stones of že stoon must be ij foote brood and at že leste a foote and an half thikke."


I'd love to know if the Furnyvales Inne is the same as this one:

Furnival's Inn

Carleton bysyde Snayth is most likely Carlton by Snaith in Yorkshire.

Carlton Towers is on an estate owned by the Edward Fitzlan-Howard, the 18th Duke of Norfolk. The current building is 17th century but stands on the site of building erected in the 14th century. I wonder if the above mentioned stones are the ones used in the original.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlton_Towers

There are a lot of Paston letters on the University of Michigan website:

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/tex...oc;idno=Paston

Last edited by authun; January 9th, 2018 at 11:24 AM.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 12:26 PM   #72

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When the claim is made that the current land ownership in England goes back to the Conquest, it refers to the parcels of land, not the families. As you point out, the owners change, but the portions of land are still similar. This is because the rights have changed hands, sometimes due to fines by the king or as gifts to followers, taken from someone else and occasionally to other major families who had enough money to buy large feudal estates. The Stanhopes, Wentworths, Spencers etc are not Norman feudal family names but nobles who acquired those lands by one route or another.

For example the Duke of Devonshire is held by the House of Cavendish, founded by John Cavendish in 1346. He was from the village of Cavendish in Suffolk. He was a judge and was involved in suppressing the Peasants' Revolt under Wat Tyler, for which he was rewarded. The family acquired many titles and parcels of since, Duke of Newcastle, Marquess of Hartington, Earl of Burlington, Earl of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Viscount Mansfield, Baron Clifford, Baron Cavendish of Keighley and so on with seats at Bolton Abbey, Chatsworth House and Lismore Castle, in Ireland. John Cavendish was the son of Robert de Gernon of Grimston Hall, Suffolk. The Gernons were a family from Normandy who in 1086 held the Hundreds of, Barstable, Harlow, Waltham, Becontree, Winstree, Uttlesford, Cavering, Hinckford, Lexden, Ongar, Chafford, Chelmsford, Tendring and Thurstable. The original title of Roger de Gernon was Baron of Stansted Mountfitchet. Probably some of those original hundreds in Suffolk and Essex have changed hands, but more land was gained and the Cavendishes rival the Stanleys, the Earls of Derby in land ownership. Another large family belonging to the norman nobility were the de Lacy family. However, their male descendants died out in 1192 and the female descendents in 1348. Their many lands were either bequeathed, sold or forfeited by their spouses. The last female, Alice, held the Honour of Pontefract and her husband, Thomas of Lancaster, was to inherit, under the terms of the marriage agreement, her lands. They divorced and a feud ensued between Surrey and Lancaster with Thomas seizing a couple of their castles. He was eventually executed for treason in 1322 and his lands were forfeited. His younger brother Henry petitioned for the return of the Earldom of Leicester and after the original conviction was overturned, Henry was further permitted to take possession of the Earldoms of Lancaster, Derby, Salisbury and Lincoln.

This is all very typical of how all these landed norman families swapped titles and large parcels of land which originally go back to the norman conquest. The original estates, those of 1086, may no longer exist in orginal form but they have been, largely, broken up and divided amongst the same families, or the church or acquired by compulsary order by the state, for things like Ministry of Defence land.

Your point about capital is another good one. Some families, like the Earls of Derby, made lots of money because they owned lands where there were major coal seams and by building canals and toll roads, and eventually railways, they made lots of money from transportation. Many of these things were later nationalised.
Robert Gernon in1086 only held a few hides in those hundreds. Barstable for example he had three and a half hides and 30 acres in Ramsden Bellhouse/Crays Hill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramsden_Bellhouse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crays_Hill

There are lots of landholders in the Barstable hundred, Bishop of Bayeux, Eustace II, Count of Boulogne, etc.
Swein (sheriff) of Essex is the largest landholder in the Barstable hundred and Essex, his grandson lost the lot in a land dispute trial by combat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_of_Essex
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Old January 9th, 2018, 12:57 PM   #73
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You write well so you shouldn't be surprised. Were they in modern english or middle english? Middle english, the time of Chaucer, is inflected but the inflections have mostly disappeared by the time of Shakespeare. The Paston letters are important in the study of these changes. This is from William Paston to John Stanford in 1425, an enquiry about how stone for building work should be cut:

"To my weel beloued John Staynford of Furnyvales Inne. že instruccion to comune of to John Robynson of Carleton bysyde Snayth. To [unclear] enquerre and wyte whether že stoon may be sawed or nought, and whether it wille chippe or chynne or affraye with frost or weder or water. Al-so žat euery pece of že stoon be iij foote longe and žat xv tunne tyght [unclear] of že stoon be euery stoon weel bedded in-to že walle and a foote thikke žat it ryse in heighte a foote in že walle, and x stones of že stoon must be ij foote brood and at že leste a foote and an half thikke."


I'd love to know if the Furnyvales Inne is the same as this one:

Furnival's Inn

Carleton bysyde Snayth is most likely Carlton by Snaith in Yorkshire.

Carlton Towers is on an estate owned by the Edward Fitzlan-Howard, the 18th Duke of Norfolk. The current building is 17th century but stands on the site of building erected in the 14th century. I wonder if the above mentioned stones are the ones used in the original.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlton_Towers

There are a lot of Paston letters on the University of Michigan website:

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/tex...oc;idno=Paston
Thank you very much for this example, Authun.

Kind regards, Paul.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 02:18 PM   #74
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Robert Gernon in1086 only held a few hides in those hundreds.
Yes, it would be more accurately, 'parcels in the hundreds of ....' But, the point is the same, the House of Cavendish descended from the feudal Gernons.

The three and a half hides and 30 acres in Ramsden that you mention however is demense, ie Tenant-in-Chief. People like Ansketil, Richard, Ascelin and Hugh hold more hides as Robert's sub tenants in other parts of the Barstable Hundred, although Ansketil was also a sub tenant in Ramsden.

The total Domesday holdings by Robert as Tenant-in-Chief 1086 demesne estates (no subtenants), Tenant-in-Chief 1086 subtenanted estates and as Subtenant in 1086 himself are given here:

http://domesday.pase.ac.uk/Domesday?...ersonkey=40816

Last edited by authun; January 9th, 2018 at 02:59 PM.
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Old January 9th, 2018, 02:21 PM   #75
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Thank you very much for this example, Authun.

Kind regards, Paul.
One of those coincidences Paul. I was in Snaith last week to have a look at some 13th century churches in the near vicinity. Maybe John Robynson was cutting stone for one of those?
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Old January 9th, 2018, 05:46 PM   #76

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Yes, it would be more accurately, 'parcels in the hundreds of ....' But, the point is the same, the House of Cavendish descended from the feudal Gernons.

The three and a half hides and 30 acres in Ramsden that you mention however is demense, ie Tenant-in-Chief. People like Ansketil, Richard, Ascelin and Hugh hold more hides as Robert's sub tenants in other parts of the Barstable Hundred, although Ansketil was also a sub tenant in Ramsden.

The total Domesday holdings by Robert as Tenant-in-Chief 1086 demesne estates (no subtenants), Tenant-in-Chief 1086 subtenanted estates and as Subtenant in 1086 himself are given here:

Robert 53
Ansketil is the only sub tenant in Barstable Hundred with two hides, the others are in Witham Hundred.
Swein's holdings in Barstable Hundred are 20 hides in demesne and about the same again sub tenanted.
Swein was also a minor land owner in 1066, on Edward's death he had to give Upper Tooting (Brixton Hundred) to Earl Waltheof (of Northumbria) for some reason.

Swein 9
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Old January 10th, 2018, 02:39 AM   #77
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Swein was also a minor land owner in 1066, on Edward's death he had to give Upper Tooting (Brixton Hundred) to Earl Waltheof (of Northumbria) for some reason.
Not sure what is going on there because Waltheof was executed in 1076. The House of Waltheof held a lot of land around Northamptonshire and Huntingdonshire at the time of Harold Godwinson. He stayed at William's court but in 1069 joined the Danes in their attack on York. He was pardoned and was later made earl and when William expelled Gospatric from Northumbria, Waltheof took the earldom. However, in 1075 Waltheof joined the revolt of the Northern Earls and was executed in 1076.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 10:50 AM   #78

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Not sure what is going on there because Waltheof was executed in 1076. The House of Waltheof held a lot of land around Northamptonshire and Huntingdonshire at the time of Harold Godwinson. He stayed at William's court but in 1069 joined the Danes in their attack on York. He was pardoned and was later made earl and when William expelled Gospatric from Northumbria, Waltheof took the earldom. However, in 1075 Waltheof joined the revolt of the Northern Earls and was executed in 1076.
Waltheof's father Siward died in 1055 and the Godwins grabbed Northumbria for Tostiq. Waltheof was a minor, his elder brother had been killed in the campaign against Macbeth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siward...of_Northumbria

Waltheof was given the new earldom of Huntingdon in 1065, his daughter Maud married king David I of Scotland and the earldom of Huntingdon passed to David.

Great Cause (David, Earl of Huntingdon, son of Henry, Earl of Huntingdon, son of King David I.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compet...he_competitors.

Swein's father was Robert FitzWimarc, who is depicted on the Bayeux Tapestry and recorded by William of Poitiers, chaplain of Duke William of Normandy (Gesta Guillelmi)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_FitzWimarc

Swein must have been of military age in 1066 to hold land, but obviously did not oppose William at Hastings. Swein is a Norse name, presumably his mother was from the Danelaw elite.
Swein lost the shrievalty of Essex for some reason, possibly in the "time of the Sheriffs" (Domesday, Lands of the King, Half Hundred of Harlow)

Sheriffs (Wiki)
1067–1070: Jacque de Buckland
Robert FitzWimarc
Swein
?-1072 Ilbert
1072–c1086 Peter de Valognes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_Castle
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Old January 11th, 2018, 01:26 AM   #79

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1072–c1086 Peter de Valognes
Peter held some of his demesne land by mortgage from the king.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...lognes&f=false
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