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Old January 11th, 2018, 10:26 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by TupSum View Post
Goths as such were in that area 400 years earlier.
They were not. Goth migrated from Baltic along Bug river (north-eastern Poland, western Belarus, north-western Ukraine) south into south-western Ukraine and Crimea. They migrated in central Europe after being pushed by Huns. Some went in western Europe from Panonnian plain after being pushed by Avars. The rest of Germanic were pushed later by Magyars.

Last edited by lexell; January 11th, 2018 at 10:29 AM.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 10:31 AM   #32
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They were not. Goth migrated from Baltic along Bug further south into south-western Ukraine and Crimea. They migrated in central Europe after being pushed by Huns. Some went in western Europe from Panonnian plain after being pushed by Avars and later Magyars.
There were no more Goths as such during the times of the Magyar conquest.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 10:37 AM   #33
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There were no more Goths as such during the times of the Magyar conquest.
The last mentioning of Ostroroths living in Crimea was as late as the 17th century in chronicles. I can point to several sources stating that Nestor was referring to Ostrogoths writing about Volochs in Panonian plain during Magyar conquest. There were no Vlachs in Panononia in the 9th century.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 10:52 AM   #34
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The last mentioning of Ostroroths living in Crimea was as late as the 17th century in chronicles.
If I read this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Goths I'm not sure if there is enough information to ascertain that they were really Goths, but even in the case that they were, and managed to preserve their Gothic identity until late, this doesn't mean that we can talk about Goths as such as still existing in other places of Europe in the IXth century.

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Old January 11th, 2018, 10:59 AM   #35
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The last mentioning of Ostroroths living in Crimea was as late as the 17th century in chronicles. I can point to several sources stating that Nestor was referring to Ostrogoths writing about Volochs in Panonian plain during Magyar conquest. There were no Vlachs in Panononia in the 9th century.
I believe you, but I doubt the quality of your sources. To claim that there were Ostrogoths in Pannonia during the times of the Magyar conquest, and that they were called "Volochs", is simply ridiculous: voloch.

Last edited by Ficino; January 11th, 2018 at 11:06 AM.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 11:10 AM   #36
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I believe you, but I doubt the quality of your sources. To claim that there were Ostrogoths in Pannonia during the times of the Magyar conquest, and that they were called "Volochs", is simply ridiculous: voloch.
The quality of my sources? The Tale of Bygone Years compiled in Kiev around 1113 by Monk Nestor. It's one of the earliest and most accurate historic chronicles that accurately accounted for all Slavic tribes from Balkans to Russia, as well as other peoples living in this part of Europe. It's a fundamental source of information on people of eastern and central Europe : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
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Old January 11th, 2018, 11:13 AM   #37
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The quality of my sources? The Tale of Bygone Years compiled in Kiev around 1113 by Monk Nestor. It's one of the earliest and most accurate historic chronicles that accurately accounted for all Slavic tribes from Balkans to Russia, as well as other peoples living in this part of Europe. It's a fundamental source of information on people of eastern and central Europe : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
I know that chronicle, and a Romanian translation with notes is available to me (and is found on-line e.g. here), so please provide the text you want to discuss.

Last edited by Ficino; January 11th, 2018 at 11:29 AM.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 11:31 AM   #38

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I believe you, but I doubt the quality of your sources. To claim that there were Ostrogoths in Pannonia during the times of the Magyar conquest, and that they were called "Volochs", is simply ridiculous: voloch.

I think the ostrogoths settled in what is today northern Italy around 500 and later were incorporated in the frankish empire. Vlach is an exonym for all the romanic people, so it is possible that some author transferred the term Voloch to ALL romance speakers: romanian, frankish, celtic, byzantine etc etc.

In that sense also to some northern italic people (who at that time 900 AD) certainly considered themselves franks.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 11:51 AM   #39
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I think the ostrogoths settled in what is today northern Italy around 500 and later were incorporated in the frankish empire. Vlach is an exonym for all the romanic people, so it is possible that some author transferred the term Voloch to ALL romance speakers: romanian, frankish, celtic, byzantine etc etc.

In that sense also to some northern italic people (who at that time 900 AD) certainly considered themselves franks.
Maybe, but I like to discuss concrete things.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 12:03 PM   #40
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Roman religious idols were worshiped alongside Dacian religious idols prior to the Hungarian invasion of Transylvania and after the Roman conquest of Dacia. An example would be the Roman deity Glycon who was worshiped in Dacia prior to the Hungarian invasion of the region in the 2nd century AD. Sabazios was a Thracian god that was worshiped by the Romanians at the same time. If Romanians were not of Daco-Roman origin, then why would they have worshiped both Roman and Dacian gods before the Hungarians entered the land? There were also Roman sites established in Romania prior to the Hungarian invasion. These are Alba Iulia, Dinogetia, Halmyris, Histria, Isaccea, Porolissum, Roșia Montană, Tropaeum Traiani, Turda, and Zlatna. Some of the established by the Greeks before Roman settlement in the region, Romans also built many fortifications during the period they occupied it e.g. Jidava. There were also many Roman settlers sent there to build infrastructure and colonize the place like there were in every other region the Romans conquered. This shows that Romans were established in modern day Romania after the conquest of Dacia.

The similarity with Albanian would be because of the Dacian substrate in Romanian (Dacians intermingled with Illyrians). If Romanians were migrants from that region, there would be records of a mass migration from the Western Balkans like there are records of a mass Slavic migration from Central Europe to the Balkans.

The Romanians mentioned in Gesta Hungarorum probably never existed and the whole book was probably fake for the most part, but the fact that Anonymous knew about the existence of Romanians in Transylvania shows that they were living there at the very least as far back as the early 1200's. This was after the Hungarians conquered the region, which means that the population of Romanians would have most likely been less back then than before the conquest since colonizers usually assimilate the people living on the land and decrease their population rather than the other way around.

Romania used the Cyrillic alphabet because it was culturally influenced by the Bulgarian Empire and Byzantine Empire. All of Romania was conquered by the Bulgarian Empire and they were the ones that started using Cyrillic. Prior to getting the Cyrillic script from Bulgaria, the Romanians were illiterate so they didn't use any alphabet. Once they got the Cyrillic alphabet, they had no reason to stop using it in favor of Latin considering that it was the alphabet used by all non-Greek Orthodox Christians at the time.
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