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Old January 11th, 2018, 01:55 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Brahmavarta View Post
being Viking or Saxon is same because i think original Saxons were Nordic Germanic Tribe as well.
They are as different as say the Scots and the Irish or the Welsh. By about 400AD on the continent the saxons and the norse are speaking a different language and by the time we have saxons in the south of england and danes in the danelaw in england, the languages are very different. At one point the anglo saxon alphabet had 33 runic characters whereas the younger futhark of the norse had only 16, presumably to reflect the sound changes. They have similar origins of course, but diverged later on and were subject to different influences. There are some who think the saxons in the south of england are really mostly welsh and not germanic at all.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 03:37 AM   #12

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Authun,



I was in Newcastle, apart from their Geordie they seemed to me Englishmen as the others...but perhaps I didn't catched the finesses about the Northern and the Southern

Kind regards from Paul.
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Nobody I know considers themselves Germanic.
Never did trust them Geordies. I thought they talked funny, blooming Germanics.

And to think the German Fleet bombarded Hartlepool in WWI - no brotherly love at all!
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Old January 11th, 2018, 04:47 AM   #13
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If seen as a "family", then a very quarrelsome one. Lots of wars between them. Germans and English fighting, but earlier german-german wars, (like Prussian-Austrian wars of 1866), english-dutch war, Sweden and Denmark (unified with Norway) en a lot of wars. So we speak of a language group here.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 04:59 AM   #14

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Not quite.

By the time the Vikings began raiding England it had been four centuries since the Saxons settled England, in all that time culture and language had shifted greatly. They were two separate peoples, regardless of whatever ancient ties they may have had.

If you're just referring to ethnicity, the Anglo-Saxons just like their modern English descendants were also in large part descended from the Britons. While some displacement of the Britons did occur during the Saxon invasion of England, there was also cultural assimilation and intermarriage.
There is actually very little evidence of assimilation between the Britons and Anglo-Saxons. The evidence from written sources, place name studies, and linguistics suggest the opposite, particularly in the south and east of what was to become England.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 11:43 AM   #15

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There is actually very little evidence of assimilation between the Britons and Anglo-Saxons. The evidence from written sources, place name studies, and linguistics suggest the opposite, particularly in the south and east of what was to become England.
There is evidence of admixture between the Saxons and Britons in the genetic makeup of the people of Britain.

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For decades, archaeologists and geneticists have sought to identify Anglo-Saxons in England. An early attempt in 2002 relied on modern DNA with a study of the male Y chromosome suggesting there had been a 95% population replacement of Britons by the Anglo-Saxons, comprised of different people from Northern Europe. But another study, based on mitochondrial DNA which is inherited from the mother, found no evidence of significant post-Roman migration into England. A third paper suggested that the genetic contribution of the Anglo-Saxons in south-eastern England was under 50%.

The discrepancies between the findings are because these three papers used modern DNA and worked backwards. Work my colleagues and I have undertaken looked at the question from the other direction by working with ancient DNA.

The results from our recent study were published in Nature Communications and included evidence from an Anglo-Saxon site I excavated in Oakington, Cambridgeshire. In total ten skeletons where investigated. These included seven early medieval graves dating to between the fifth and eighth century four from Oakington and three from Hinxton and three earlier Iron Age graves from Cambridgeshire, dating to between the second century BC and the first century AD, to provide the genome of the antecedent inhabitants of Briton.

We used a novel method called "rarecoal" to look at ancestry based on the sharing of rare alleles, which are the building blocks of genes. Our research concluded that migrants during what's now thought of as the Anglo-Saxon period were most closely related to the modern Dutch and Danish and that the modern East English population derived 38% of its ancestry from these incomers. The rest of Britain, including today's Scottish and Welsh, share 30% of their DNA with these migrants.

The analysis of DNA of four individuals from the Oakington Anglo-Saxon cemetery identified that one of them was a match with the Iron Age genome, two were closest to modern Dutch genomes, and one was a hybrid of the two. Each of these burials was culturally Anglo-Saxon because they were buried in the same way, in the same cemetery. In fact, the richest assemblage of Anglo-Saxon artefacts came from the individual with the match for Iron Age genetic ancestry, and so was not a migrant at all.

It shows that these ancient people did not distinguish biological heritage from cultural association. In other words, someone who lived and died in the fifth or sixth century Anglo-Saxon village of Oakington could have been biologically related to an earlier inhabitant of England, a recent migrant from continental Europe or a descendent of either or both they were all treated the same in death.
Phys.org - Why the idea that the English have a common Anglo-Saxon origin is a myth
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Old January 11th, 2018, 11:54 AM   #16

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It's not a matter of consideration. It's fact.

England, and Britain to a wider extent, is more culturally akin to the Netherlands and Germany than France, Spain, or Italy.

English also, despite the Norman French influence on its vocabulary, is more Germanic sounding. Germanic languages tend to be more guttural than Romance languages, and English is not as smooth as French, Spanish, or Italian. English people also look more like Scandinavians, Dutch, and Germans. Spanish, Portuguese, and Italians, often tend to be darker in complexion. Compare somebody like Harry Kane to Hector Bellerin, for those who follow football. Kane has a lighter complexion than Bellerin, as do most Northern Europeans compared to Southern Europeans.

English and Germans often have banter, and stemming from a history of war and rivalry, but both recognise the evident historical links between them. I doubt many English don't know that that the Anglo-Saxons came from what are now Germany, Denmark, and the Netherlands.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 11:59 AM   #17

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There is evidence of admixture between the Saxons and Britons in the genetic makeup of the people of Britain.



Phys.org - Why the idea that the English have a common Anglo-Saxon origin is a myth
The Anglo-Saxons practiced slavery. I suspect they made any Britons they captured slaves, or procured them from what are now Wales, Cornwall, and Scotland. Or some Celts may have assimilated once they knew which side the wind was blowing.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 12:45 PM   #18

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He alludes to the fact that in the year 700 the law code of Wessex alludes explicitly to the fact the weregild paid for the death of a Saxon was many-fold greater than that paid for a Briton (of the same class status). This suggests that many Britons were still resident in the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.
Razib Khan is making a number of assumptions here. The laws of Ine clearly show that there were some Britons living in Wessex, but those laws do not prove or even infer there were Britons living in the other Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. Moreover, those laws do not tell us how many Britons were in Ine`s kingdom. In fact the place name evidence shows no evidence for Britons at all, and so the inference to be drawn is that there must have been some but not many. Now, there is some evidence from place-name studies from Northumbria that there were Britons living in that kingdom, but on the periphery and also on marginal land. All of the evidence from the written sources, from linguistics, and from place-name studies indicate that there was little assimilation.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 12:50 PM   #19
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In the 21st century, I think the idea of considering oneself part of a wider Germanic family is mostly restricted to fascists (and I'm talking here only about your proper fascist, steeped in the traditional literature and symbolism of Nazism - your run-of-the-mill, angry nationalist in England, Holland, and parts of Scandinavia, who may sometimes be called a fascist, may well harbour considerable resentment towards Germans).
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Old January 11th, 2018, 01:06 PM   #20
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If seen as a "family", then a very quarrelsome one. Lots of wars between them. Germans and English fighting, but earlier german-german wars, (like Prussian-Austrian wars of 1866), english-dutch war, Sweden and Denmark (unified with Norway) en a lot of wars. So we speak of a language group here.
Fantasus,

you are right. We are talking languages here, a language group.
If you start with links to regions related to certain languages, then really is "het hek van de dam" as my Dutch brothers from the Netherlands say. They translate it in my dictionary by: there is no stopping them now.
I took part in "Celtic discussions" and if they start to add the genetics in the question than it gets completely crazy. I swear by acculturation . And even a fourth one: the story of the "roman national" (the national myth) about the birth of their nationhood...mostly starting in the 19th century.
We need here "motorbike" to speak about nationhood...

And perhaps in the near future you will be able to see your films with subtitles in every language you want and speaking to each other in any language you want, you speak your official! language (not Geordie) and your counterpart receives it in his own language through a language robot and vice versa...
In this century: the languages perhaps a bit anachronistic...only study material for linguists...although I find it still more personal and cosy to try with trial and error to speak to each other in a broken foreign language as it gives more human contact...in my humble opinion...

Kind regards, Paul.
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