Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > World History Forum > European History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

European History European History Forum - Western and Eastern Europe including the British Isles, Scandinavia, Russia


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 13th, 2018, 03:31 AM   #61

OccamsRazor's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Sep 2012
From: London, centre of my world
Posts: 1,556

Quote:
Originally Posted by authun View Post
They're still bitter about that world cup final in 1974.
And a small matter of thirty years earlier.
OccamsRazor is offline  
Remove Ads
Old January 13th, 2018, 06:26 AM   #62

Slak's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Jan 2018
From: Netherlands
Posts: 283

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulRyckier View Post
Slak,

thanks for confirming my message to Stevev.
BTW: you will see that the Dutch of the first paragraph (of the link I provided) is from the 19th century, but still easy understandable...
After WWII the Dutch spelling is changed (at the same time in The Netherlands and Belgium by, I guess, a joint language commision ). In the Fifties in my childhood I read, as many books weren't yet changed from the "oude spelling" to "nieuwe spelling), a lot of books from the library in old spelling, as "vleesch" for "vlees" and "hooren" for "horen" and that many other words...

And btw welcome to the boards to another one from the Low Countries...

Kind regards, Paul.
Thanks, Paul.
Slak is offline  
Old January 13th, 2018, 09:29 AM   #63
Historian
 
Joined: Apr 2017
From: Las Vegas, NV USA
Posts: 1,918

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaficek View Post
The important point is not the sheer number of words - I don't know if 60% of Latinate origin is correct; but if you look at those words you'll see that a lot of them are obscure, formal and technical. There may be more Latinate words than Germanic words in English, but the Germanic words make up the bulk of common, everyday, language.

Look at the previous paragraph - about 75% Germanic words, by my count.
It's not the number of words, but word usage that is relevant. Basic English (a formal language construct) has about 1000 words. An "educated" English vocabulary has about 30,000 words There are just a a few thousand Anglo-Saxon descended words in modern English.
stevev is online now  
Old January 13th, 2018, 11:47 AM   #64

Aelfwine's Avatar
Scholar
 
Joined: Nov 2008
From: England
Posts: 942

Quote:
This is what Graeme Davis writes in Comparative Syntax of Old English and Old Icelandic:

"It has long been recognised that Old English and Old Icelandic have a high proportion of common lexis and very similar morphology, yet the convention has been to emphasise the differences between the two as representatives respectively of the West and North sub-families of Germanic. The argument of this book is that the similar word-order of the two should instead lead us to stress the similarities between the two languages. Old English and Old Icelandic were sufficiently close to be mutually comprehensible. This thesis receives copious support from historical and literary texts. Our understanding of the Old Germanic world should be modified by the concept of a common «Northern Speech» which provided a common Germanic ethnic identity and a platform for the free flow of cultural ideas."
Is this Graeme Davis, Authun, the academic who wrote the book "The Early English Settlement of Orkney and Shetland"? That book certainly ruffled a few tartan feathers when it was published. Davis proposed those islands were the first areas of the British isles to be settled by Anglo-Saxons, and way before the traditional dates for the Adventus Saxonum.
Aelfwine is offline  
Old January 13th, 2018, 12:08 PM   #65

LatinoEuropa's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Oct 2015
From: Matosinhos Portugal
Posts: 4,272

Quote:
Originally Posted by authun View Post
Because languages belong to groups and members of a group are descended from a common ancestor. English is germanic, or more precisely a low west germanic language, because it descends from common germanic. The large number of latin words are mostly introduced into english via french in later centuries, but this doesn't alter the fact thata there was a time when old english didn't use those words. They are simply extra words.
...........................

I have already said that the German alphabet is Latin, as it also has Latin words in the German language, as it has in other languages having the Latin alphabet.

Eu já disse que o alfabeto alemão é latim,como tambem tem palavras do latim na lingua alemã,como tem em outra linguas tendo o alfabeto latim.
LatinoEuropa is online now  
Old January 13th, 2018, 01:02 PM   #66

LatinoEuropa's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Oct 2015
From: Matosinhos Portugal
Posts: 4,272

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaficek View Post
The important point is not the sheer number of words - I don't know if 60% of Latinate origin is correct; but if you look at those words you'll see that a lot of them are obscure, formal and technical. There may be more Latinate words than Germanic words in English, but the Germanic words make up the bulk of common, everyday, language.

Look at the previous paragraph - about 75% Germanic words, by my count.

Do not forget the words, Arabic Hebrew Greek, which are latinized and are spoken in the German English language Dutch etc.etc.
............
friend words of origin of Hebrew Greek Latin Arabic, in Portuguese French Romanian Spanish etc. I see them in the English language and the German language etc.etc.
It's just a small example, tell me what the German words are
...
Arabic - Emerald - Azimuth - Cuba - Coffee - Sheriff

Hebrew - Bishop - Good-Ester - Estevão - Gasa

Greek - Empathy - Cynicism - Cynic - Idiot - History - Criterion -

Latin - Forgive - Style - Imbecile - Sardine - Silva

In Portuguese

árabe - Esmeralda - Azimute - Cuba - Café - Xerife

Hébraico - Bispo - Boa -Ester - Estevão - Gasa

Grego - Empatia - Cinismo - Cinico - Idiota - História - Critério -

Latim - Perdoar - Estilo - Imbecil - Sardinha - Silva
LatinoEuropa is online now  
Old January 13th, 2018, 02:28 PM   #67
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,513

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aelfwine View Post
Is this Graeme Davis, Authun, the academic who wrote the book "The Early English Settlement of Orkney and Shetland"? That book certainly ruffled a few tartan feathers when it was published. Davis proposed those islands were the first areas of the British isles to be settled by Anglo-Saxons, and way before the traditional dates for the Adventus Saxonum.
Yes it is. The book I mention was published in a series Studies in Historial Linguistics.

https://www.peterlang.com/view/serial/SHL
authun is offline  
Old January 13th, 2018, 02:51 PM   #68
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,513

Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinoEuropa View Post
I have already said that the German alphabet is Latin, as it also has Latin words in the German language, as it has in other languages having the Latin alphabet.

But that has no meaning. It does not mean that english is latin or that early germanic was latin because there was a time when both were written using a runic character set of up to 33 runes in the case of the anglo saxon language. Not a latin alphabet at all. The reason why they changed was due to the influence of the roman church in England, and later in germany, where latin was used. Even so, it contained many characters unrecognisable from classical latin. Most of the latin words in England enter the language via french in the 14th, 15th and 16th cents, not via classical latin. If you are going to caim english is latin because it has a latin alphabet then latin is a mixture of greek and etruscan ndultimately phoenician. It's nonesense of course, because writing systems as lexis, do not define a language.

Languages are classified or grouped by the earliest common root from which the languages of the group have evolved. Latin evolved from the proto italic language group via the latino faliscan group. Anything later are just borrowings and have nothing to do with origin.

This is one proposed phylogeny:

Click the image to open in full size.




Note, even though Greek is on a different branch, it does not exclude latin adopting the letters Y and Z from greek in the 1st century BC.

Last edited by authun; January 13th, 2018 at 02:53 PM.
authun is offline  
Old January 14th, 2018, 03:41 AM   #69
Archivist
 
Joined: Dec 2017
From: Germany
Posts: 185

Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinoEuropa View Post
Do not forget the words, Arabic Hebrew Greek, which are latinized and are spoken in the German English language Dutch etc.etc.
............
friend words of origin of Hebrew Greek Latin Arabic, in Portuguese French Romanian Spanish etc. I see them in the English language and the German language etc.etc.
It's just a small example, tell me what the German words are
...
Arabic - Emerald - Azimuth - Cuba - Coffee - Sheriff

Hebrew - Bishop - Good-Ester - Estevão - Gasa

Greek - Empathy - Cynicism - Cynic - Idiot - History - Criterion -

Latin - Forgive - Style - Imbecile - Sardine - Silva



In Portuguese

árabe - Esmeralda - Azimute - Cuba - Café - Xerife

Hébraico - Bispo - Boa -Ester - Estevão - Gasa

Grego - Empatia - Cinismo - Cinico - Idiota - História - Critério -

Latim - Perdoar - Estilo - Imbecil - Sardinha - Silva
Sheriff is not a word of Arabic origin: sheriff is an Old English word because it has a clear meaning in English: the shire reeve = sheriff
The word is scirgerefa in old English.
The king´s reeve was the effective president of the shire-court in the later Anglo-Saxon period hence sheriff. It is a compound word and compounding is a typical feature of West Germanic languages

Last edited by FMHOPE; January 14th, 2018 at 03:50 AM.
FMHOPE is offline  
Old January 14th, 2018, 04:58 AM   #70
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,513

Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinoEuropa View Post
Arabic - - Coffee

In Portuguese - Café
Portuguese tomate derives from tomatl, the nahuatl language of the aztecs. Portuguese and nahuatl are not cognate languages. Portuguese does not stem from the Aztecs. The word has been borrowed by most european languages from the aztecan word tomatl, just like coffee was borrowed from arabic qahwah. Same with portuguese chocolate, from nahuatl cacahuatl. Same with many many other words such as portuguese robô from rabu "slave," from Old Slavic *orbu. You surely are not going to claim that portuguese is slavic are you?

If you are going to dabble in linguistics, you need to understand the difference between cognates and borrowings. As most european languages are descended from PIE, they share many cognates from PIE roots but also have many borrowings from technological innovations which post date PIE, develoments between then and now, like iron, cognate with german eisen a borrowing from gaulish isarna but quite different from latin ferrum, possibly semitic in origin and finally entering via etruscan.

Then there are words like tin which only have cognates within one IE language group. The germanic group use cognates, zin and tin exclusively. There are no cognates like eisen and isarna. Portuguese use italic lata. The english word cassiterite, the oxide of tin, derives from greek.

Counting words in the lexis does not define a language.

Last edited by authun; January 14th, 2018 at 05:00 AM.
authun is offline  
Reply

  Historum > World History Forum > European History

Tags
dutch, engnlishdutchand, family, germanic, nordic, nordicpeople, wider



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Assyrian Empire wider than it suppose to be? Ashur Ancient History 4 March 24th, 2015 03:18 AM
Latching on fragments - rather than confronting the wider picture Brisieis Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 4 December 17th, 2014 06:11 AM
How aware were pre-Columbian Natives of the wider world? Salah American History 10 July 26th, 2014 04:07 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.