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Old March 21st, 2018, 07:14 PM   #31

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Bulgarian per example has no cases. Here an illustration:

number of grammatical cases:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_case
Click the image to open in full size.

The only slavic language with this peculiarity. It is attributed to the influence of some other indo-european language. Might be thracian might be something else, but there are not many other options really.

It is of course speculation, we don't know enough about the thracian language to know for sure.
Bulgarian grammar wiki claims Bulgarian had cases in the past but lost them for some reason.
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Old March 22nd, 2018, 04:08 AM   #32

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Damn did I come late to this party!

People so far have made some really good points.
Yes, religious differences and hungarian being alien & hard as far as the other peoples were concerned were the main reason.

Besides that, constant oppression of the conquered peoples enforced a sentiment of ''us and them'' that no entity trying to assimilate desires to have.

Other, historical, events such as the mongol conquest and the Ottoman Empire's incursions also had a serious role.
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Old March 22nd, 2018, 04:09 AM   #33

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That is actually one of the arguments why the Bulgars may be not turkic but indo-iranian. The modern bulgarian language is actually a hybrid language and a bit of an outlier among slavic languages. The differences are substantial (I wouldn't go into much detail) and are attributed to the influence of the bulgar and thracian languages.
Isn't it possible that the Bulgars were already slavic speaking when they reached modern Bulgaria?
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Old March 22nd, 2018, 05:01 AM   #34

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Bulgarian grammar wiki claims Bulgarian had cases in the past but lost them for some reason.
Exactly. Old church slavonic had cases and during the establishment as the ofifcial and predominant language, it was transformed to some extent.

Same thing happened with English. It dropped a lot of grammatical complications because of the several languages merging.
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Old March 22nd, 2018, 05:06 AM   #35

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Isn't it possible that the Bulgars were already slavic speaking when they reached modern Bulgaria?
The names and toponyms they left were definitely not slavic but indo-iranian. Please look up Kuber and Madara per example



Please let's not go off topic. It's about Hungary.
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Old March 22nd, 2018, 11:10 AM   #36

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Damn did I come late to this party!
....
Nah, it isn't late: there's plenty of booze left!

You can ask for pŕlinka, tzuica or slivovitza, it doesn't mater, cause anyway, You will get the same thing: good plum alcohol!
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Old March 24th, 2018, 05:51 PM   #37

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It's a complex story. In late 13th century Simon Kézai wrote a work called Gesta Hunnorum et Hungarorum, giving his vision of Hungarian history. In it he claimed that the nobility originated from ancient 108 Hunnic/Hungarian clans (as the Huns and the Hungarians were the same according to Kézai), that came from "Scythia"; those who failed to join the ranks in times of war were "rightfully punished" by "eternal serfdom". The nobility from the "other nations" (ethnically non-Hungarian nobility of Hungary) entered the ranks of the nobility by serving the king or other barons of the realm. The sharp distinction was made among regnicolae (the political community that actually led the country) and the common inhabitants (Hungariae regni cohabitatores).

During the mid 15th century, an alternative appeared. The advance of humanism brought to humanist ideas of the loyalty to the fatherland (patria). The new community, called respublica litterata emerged. The only thing that connected these people trained in humanist disciplines was their education. They had no illusion of belonging to any ethnic or political community.

With the Ottoman conquests, the humanists of the 16th century had to take care to avoid any further divisions. Stuck between two great powers, the Hungarian humanists saw the similarity of their situation with the one of early 16th century Italy. The downfall of Hungary was attributed to loose connections of the inhabitants (including regnicolae) and the lack of "virtue" of the same people. The most important theoretician of the time, István Werbőczi wrote in his Tripartitium that any man could become a member of the regnicolae on two conditions:

1) To demonstrateScythian virtue (=to be a free warrior; that is, to own land)
2) To receive privileges (privileges as a document) from the king.

What is important is that Tripartitium, as well as further legal documents bear no notion of ethnic community, unlike Kézai's Gesta.

The big, if ephemeral, change arrived during the Bocskai Uprising (1604-1606). During the Long Turkish War (1593-1606) the Ottomans and the Habsburgs were hitting each other with practically everything they had, leading to devastation of Hungary as the main battlefield. Groups of armed peasants, led by István Bocskai, forced the Habsburgs to end the war. Bocskai referred to hajdúks (armed landless horsemen) as a part of Hungarian nation in a letter to a Transylvanian nobleman in 1605. Two hajdúks, one of them being a Gypsy, wrote in 1604:

Hungary is no more than a shadow of herself by now and from the acts of his captains everyone could have seen the intention of the Emperor: to devastate the country and extinguish even the Hungarian name. (taken from: B. Varga, "Political Humanism and the Corporate Theory of the State", Whose Love of Which Country? Composite States, National Histories and Patriotic Discourses in Early Modern East Central Europe, eds. Balázs Trencsényi, Márton Zászkaliczky, Brill: Leiden-Boston, 2010, p. 306)

Bocskai appealed to all inhabitants, regardless whether noble or not, to defend their patria, something radically different than Werbőczi. In a manifesto to other countries, Bocskai claimed that King Rudolf had "excommunicated himself from (...) his country". Bockai's ideas were, however, destroyed as the war ended: the hajduks received the possessions and privileges (although from the Estates and not the Crown), and thus they became a part of the nobility. Werbőczi's ideas triumphed, and the climate remained unchanged.

Another wind of change started blowing after the Seven Years' War (1756-1763). The French, being defeated by the British, attributed British victories to their citizen-based patriotism. The whole war was seen as clash of nations rather than clash of monarchs. The writers, like Rousseau in Émile, wrote about the distinction of a man and a citizen. The first one promoted self-interest, while the second one sacrificed his interest to the interest of the patrie. Putting the examples of Athens, Sparta and Roman Republic, the French writers put much effort into explaining how these examples of republican patriotism of citizens were compatible with politically exclusive absolute monarchy. This effort brought much success not in France, but in Prussia, where the spirit of such ideology flourished under King Frederick the Great.

Introduction of such spirit was attempted into Hungary as well. Queen Maria Theresa brought a small revolution when she decided to tax all the subjects equally, using the ideology of self-sacrifice as a reason. This was met with uproar in Hungarian natio politica for two reasons. First of all, Hungary was not a hereditary land of the Habsburgs and according to one of the fundamental laws she couldn't have been governed as a mere hereditary land. The other reason was the exemption of natio politica from the taxes. The nobility turned to Montesquieu’s The Spirit of the Laws, liking that Montesquieu claimed the collection of Hungarian laws to be constitution of a kind. What's more, Montesquieu wrote that without nobility there was no monarchy, for only a despotic prince would've remained. What's most important is that the nobility put an accent on the Montesquieu’s principle of division of powers: jus sufragii, or legislative power, was shared between the Diet and the monarch; therefore, there were no laws without the Diet approving them. This claim would become a commonplace after 1790.

Nobility based resistance on the question of taxes on Tripartitium and Corpus juris hungarici (a collection of Hungarian legal statutes from the 16th century, codified by István Illosfalvy). The key words were republic (meaning self-goverment of natio politica), nation (natio politica) and freedom (privileges). While still showing loyalty to the king, the natio politica made difference between love for patria and love for monarch. The struggle between the supporters of Queen Maria Theresa's centralization and the majority of nobility became particularly heated during the taxation debate on the 1764 Diet, where the queen failed to enforce taxation of nobility. Therefore a new strategy was made, not to convene the Diet at all (and the Diet was not convened until 1790). Another new strategy was introduced, of schooling the brightest Hungarian students in Vienna, and founding cameral schools funded by the monarch in Hungary.

---------------

So I think the main factors of the lack of assimilation were:

1) Feudalism (I personally hate the term, but eh): As far as I know, until development of citizenship models in the UK, France and Prussia, there were no grand-scale efforts to assimilate patois groups. The societal change in Hungary came only with the revolution of 1848-1849, and then such efforts, however uncoordinated, begun in Hungary as well.
2) Common enemies: Common enemies to all ethnic groups, such as the Ottomans and the Habsburgs (if they can be called enemies) made all groups accept living next to each other. That created what's usually called Hungarus identity. A good example from Serbian language: the Kingdom of Hungary that dissolved after the WWI is called Угарска (Ugarska), while it's successor is called Мађарска (Mađarska).
3) "West European" influences: Cultural influences from 16th century Italy and 18th century France didn't know of ethnic nationalism.
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Old March 25th, 2018, 08:18 AM   #38

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Good research, well written. Keep it coming.
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Old March 25th, 2018, 10:17 AM   #39

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Good research, well written. Keep it coming.
Well, it's not for nothing we call him a "Tzar". He so often is "caesarean" in his posts!
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Old March 25th, 2018, 12:08 PM   #40

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Good research, well written. Keep it coming.
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Well, it's not for nothing we call him a "Tzar". He so often is "caesarean" in his posts!
Don't off-topic guys!
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