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Old April 14th, 2018, 04:58 AM   #1

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Post Islam is the primary reason why Europe fell into the Dark Ages


Lots of people, unfortunetly many who are on the Right, seem to make an unwise comparison between refugees and the Germanic Migration period and someow place a moral blame on the Germanics for "destroying Europe".
There are also a few memes about htis about how Germans are somehow at fault for destroying Europe and are "at it yet again with refugees".

First of all I want to preface this by saying that Rome in its later years was ****ed up. If you like Romans, then I assume you just don't like the names, but liked them, because of their values. Values like extreme martial prowess and to just not give up, even though it the situation is almost hopeless. Your 2 Consuls all died in battle and a few Legions were wiped out? Well, just raise some new legions and proclaim new consuls and it's back to war.
You don't have any ships and your enemy is the greatest naval power in the world? Well, just reverse-engineer a captured ship, make some adjustments to it, so that it better fits your martial doctrine of getting all close and personal and built so many of them and outfit them with troops, that when you send them out to face the enemy and they all drown in a storm, creating the biggest naval disaster in all of human history up to that point and the entire next millenium.
And of course a professional military from the middle-class, who have a vested interest in not only defending their land, but also the state and the free values it stood for.

That was no longer true at the end of the Empire. In fact most values were reversed. They even ****ed up the currency and had to go back to barter system for some time. They even legally implemented "feudalism" by introducing a caste system, because with price controls and other things, people just didn't want to do certain jobs, so you forced them. The taxes were so high that nobles created feudal, agricultural estates far away from the cities. It replaced the urban trade model that made Rome so great. Sounds kinda familiar to how medieveal Europe was later? Well, you are smart. I didn't even go into how christian cults destroyed the excellent private Tutor system, but that also happened.

Anyway if you read contemporary sources, who witnessed the downfall and the offical end of the Roman Empire, most very glad. They welcomed it as a nightmare that finally found its end. The Byzantine Empire of course surived and it shouldn't be praised just for technically still being the Roman Empire. I just told you how the Empire was ****ed up.

The thing is that the Germanic Kingdoms that emerged left a lot of things in place. For the average person there wasn't a drastic lifestyle change with the fall of the Empire. If anything they were glad for much lower taxes.

But here is the actual thing I want to talk about. Islam ****ed up Europe. It ****ed up the Latin West and the Byzantine Empire and the Persians.
How did it do that? 2 Things:
The Loss of the very rare regions on Earth which produce a food surplus.
You are smart, you are probably think of Egypt, right? Yup, that was a huge loss. The Eastern Roman Empire lost it together with the very fertile middle east to the Arab Muslims. But did you know that North Africa was also very fertile? Well, you wouldn't know if you just looked at it, when the muslims took it over. What are Muslims famous for? Goats. And they just destoryed the north african ecosystem by transforming it to a goat herding area.

Naval Dominance. The Roman Empire controlled the mediterranean. They didn't have a need for a huge naval force anymore.
But the Muslims took our sea, mare internum, from Europe. This is huge. The loss in trade cannot be overstated. Muslim Piracy which lasted even to the days of the founding of the USA (yup) and taking Millions of European Christian Slaves took a massive toll on Western Europe. Eastern Europe, the Eastern Roman Empire barely surived and lost all its territory and went from a real Empire to basically Greek Kingdom.

You have to understand that not only trade goods and food gets transported over the sea, but also knowledge. I think these 2 things (land raids of course existed too) are very underrated, when we talk about why there was such a huge civilizationary decline in Europe.

"But Muslims actually brought prosperity and culture to places they conqured". Again I need to just refer you back to the beginning. They did have success in the beginning, because the Roman Empire was a late state Empire in extreme decline. The Arabs offered much lower taxes, religious freedom (at a time, when the Roman Empire tried to regulate the different christanities into one christian religion), etc. Also they conquered one the oldest and most culturally advanced places in the world. Anything less than at least roughly keeping that status, would have been an extreme failure and crisis on their part.

And if you look at Spain, it was actually the Visigoths, who did a fantastic job at appreciating and preserving Roman culture there. All the success of muslim Spain goes back to the foundations the Visigothic Spain preserved and laid out. It's sad that some people dismiss beautiful buildings from Southern Spain as just "Muslim Architecture", because of the current crisis in the west with muslims, when it was taken over from the Visigoths.

To give you something to think about, guess when Europe was able to reverse the naval dominance of the Muslim East and what kind of historical event took place then.

Also thanks to Dr Bill Warner. His Video(s) are what made me think about this a few years ago.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 05:08 AM   #2

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I guess you have noticed we have a "swear bot" that censors vulgarity. Please keep in mind that this is a family forum. A judicious, thoughtful use of language improves a post.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 05:12 AM   #3
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Are you familiar with the Pirenne Thesis? I suspect it influenced Dr. Warner.

Henri Pirenne was an economic historian. He believed the old Mediterranean-based trade networks survived the fall of the Western Empire and remained intact until the Muslim conquest of North Africa. Only then did Europe develop its separate and unique identity and culture - distinct from North Africa and the Middle East.

Pirenne's thesis is controversial. It equates culture and identity with trade and economics. There are other criticisms as well. I don't know that Pirenne ever went so far as to blame any Dark Age decline on Islam. There's plenty of evidence that things were going wrong in Western Europe long before Islam came along.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 05:21 AM   #4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro View Post
I guess you have noticed we have a "swear bot" that censors vulgarity. Please keep in mind that this is a family forum. A judicious, thoughtful use of language improves a post.
Haha.
Well, it does the work for me, so all is well, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chlodio View Post
Are you familiar with the Pirenne Thesis? I suspect it influenced Dr. Warner.

Henri Pirenne was an economic historian. He believed the old Mediterranean-based trade networks survived the fall of the Western Empire and remained intact until the Muslim conquest of North Africa. Only then did Europe develop its separate and unique identity and culture - distinct from North Africa and the Middle East.

Pirenne's thesis is controversial. It equates culture and identity with trade and economics. There are other criticisms as well. I don't know that Pirenne ever went so far as to blame any Dark Age decline on Islam. There's plenty of evidence that things were going wrong in Western Europe long before Islam came along.
I haven't heard from him, but reading this reminds me very much of the fall of Pre-Ancient Civilization with the Sea Peoples. The Mediterranian World were also described as a very "united" culture and the reason why we know why there was a crisis in the first place, is because the trade suddenly stopped and people suddenly stopped writing stuff down.

Anyway I think I made some valid points about how Islam was responsible for a huge decline in western countries. No one is saying that they are 100% at fault for the dark ages, but if you look at the effects Islam had on Christain Europe, then a very clear undeniable influence on them is visible.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 05:25 AM   #5

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chlodio View Post
Are you familiar with the Pirenne Thesis? I suspect it influenced Dr. Warner.

Henri Pirenne was an economic historian. He believed the old Mediterranean-based trade networks survived the fall of the Western Empire and remained intact until the Muslim conquest of North Africa. Only then did Europe develop its separate and unique identity and culture - distinct from North Africa and the Middle East.

Pirenne's thesis is controversial. It equates culture and identity with trade and economics. There are other criticisms as well. I don't know that Pirenne ever went so far as to blame any Dark Age decline on Islam. There's plenty of evidence that things were going wrong in Western Europe long before Islam came along.
Well, yes I know Henri Pirenne.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 05:32 AM   #6
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I think you need some definitions and dates. How do you define Dark Ages? What periods are we refering to? Which events in Islam do you refer to?

The nadir in european countries was in the first half of the 6th century, at the time of the Justinian Plague, 150 years or so before Islam entered Spain for example.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 05:54 AM   #7
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Hey Engel.
Spanish speakers call it "edad media" or middle age. English speakers call it DARK age.
When I think in christian monks hidding important books and killing those who not accept the flat earth thinking.... I see why the DARK name.
When I think of knowledge flourishing in Córdoba, out of Europe's dark... When I remember it was arabs who brought 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 0 to Europe... I see how they helped the way out of the dark age.
When I see current frontiers in África and América.... I see which continent f.....d which others.
IMHO.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 06:41 AM   #8

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engelkrieger View Post
Lots of people, unfortunetly many who are on the Right, seem to make an unwise comparison between refugees and the Germanic Migration period and someow place a moral blame on the Germanics for "destroying Europe".
There are also a few memes about htis about how Germans are somehow at fault for destroying Europe and are "at it yet again with refugees".

First of all I want to preface this by saying that Rome in its later years was ****ed up. If you like Romans, then I assume you just don't like the names, but liked them, because of their values. Values like extreme martial prowess and to just not give up, even though it the situation is almost hopeless. Your 2 Consuls all died in battle and a few Legions were wiped out? Well, just raise some new legions and proclaim new consuls and it's back to war.
You don't have any ships and your enemy is the greatest naval power in the world? Well, just reverse-engineer a captured ship, make some adjustments to it, so that it better fits your martial doctrine of getting all close and personal and built so many of them and outfit them with troops, that when you send them out to face the enemy and they all drown in a storm, creating the biggest naval disaster in all of human history up to that point and the entire next millenium.
And of course a professional military from the middle-class, who have a vested interest in not only defending their land, but also the state and the free values it stood for.

That was no longer true at the end of the Empire. In fact most values were reversed. They even ****ed up the currency and had to go back to barter system for some time. They even legally implemented "feudalism" by introducing a caste system, because with price controls and other things, people just didn't want to do certain jobs, so you forced them. The taxes were so high that nobles created feudal, agricultural estates far away from the cities. It replaced the urban trade model that made Rome so great. Sounds kinda familiar to how medieveal Europe was later? Well, you are smart. I didn't even go into how christian cults destroyed the excellent private Tutor system, but that also happened.

Anyway if you read contemporary sources, who witnessed the downfall and the offical end of the Roman Empire, most very glad. They welcomed it as a nightmare that finally found its end. The Byzantine Empire of course surived and it shouldn't be praised just for technically still being the Roman Empire. I just told you how the Empire was ****ed up.

The thing is that the Germanic Kingdoms that emerged left a lot of things in place. For the average person there wasn't a drastic lifestyle change with the fall of the Empire. If anything they were glad for much lower taxes.

But here is the actual thing I want to talk about. Islam ****ed up Europe. It ****ed up the Latin West and the Byzantine Empire and the Persians.
How did it do that? 2 Things:
The Loss of the very rare regions on Earth which produce a food surplus.
You are smart, you are probably think of Egypt, right? Yup, that was a huge loss. The Eastern Roman Empire lost it together with the very fertile middle east to the Arab Muslims. But did you know that North Africa was also very fertile? Well, you wouldn't know if you just looked at it, when the muslims took it over. What are Muslims famous for? Goats. And they just destoryed the north african ecosystem by transforming it to a goat herding area.

Naval Dominance. The Roman Empire controlled the mediterranean. They didn't have a need for a huge naval force anymore.
But the Muslims took our sea, mare internum, from Europe. This is huge. The loss in trade cannot be overstated. Muslim Piracy which lasted even to the days of the founding of the USA (yup) and taking Millions of European Christian Slaves took a massive toll on Western Europe. Eastern Europe, the Eastern Roman Empire barely surived and lost all its territory and went from a real Empire to basically Greek Kingdom.

You have to understand that not only trade goods and food gets transported over the sea, but also knowledge. I think these 2 things (land raids of course existed too) are very underrated, when we talk about why there was such a huge civilizationary decline in Europe.

"But Muslims actually brought prosperity and culture to places they conqured". Again I need to just refer you back to the beginning. They did have success in the beginning, because the Roman Empire was a late state Empire in extreme decline. The Arabs offered much lower taxes, religious freedom (at a time, when the Roman Empire tried to regulate the different christanities into one christian religion), etc. Also they conquered one the oldest and most culturally advanced places in the world. Anything less than at least roughly keeping that status, would have been an extreme failure and crisis on their part.

And if you look at Spain, it was actually the Visigoths, who did a fantastic job at appreciating and preserving Roman culture there. All the success of muslim Spain goes back to the foundations the Visigothic Spain preserved and laid out. It's sad that some people dismiss beautiful buildings from Southern Spain as just "Muslim Architecture", because of the current crisis in the west with muslims, when it was taken over from the Visigoths.

To give you something to think about, guess when Europe was able to reverse the naval dominance of the Muslim East and what kind of historical event took place then.

Also thanks to Dr Bill Warner. His Video(s) are what made me think about this a few years ago.
Its a true story and an unconvenient truth for the "political Correct" western media and general consensus .
But if you study things analitically and with open mind and not prejudice well Islam is what made fall the Roman Civilization.
Only after some time the new rulers of North Africa and middle east realized that the people from before were more evoluted and advanced and so started to "rediscover" what they were sitting on by having dhimmies translate greek and latin tests into arab, and from that originated the myth of the Islamic science ... that for me is a nonses as much as calling the whhole western science as Christian science.

That said this is also an interesting article on the desertification of the North Africa and the devaluing that the Arabs left in the regions .

The Fate of the Roman Cities of the Near East and North Africa > Emmet Scott
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Old April 14th, 2018, 05:34 PM   #9
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The so called "Dark Ages" had established itself in Europe by 500 AD, well before the time of Mohammed.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 07:00 PM   #10
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If Rome was able to protect its influences in the Mediterranean, then Arabs wouldn't be able to do trigger a fall of Europe. Yet somehow Rome fell centuries before Mohammad was born, so I dare to say that Arabs were the effect and not the reason of fall.

And while Germanics did preserve some Roman institutions (but primarily Church), as you said they were already in heavy decline and were barely a shell of what Rome had at its height. Rome already had its back broken. Arabs just filled the vacuum.
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