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Old June 24th, 2018, 01:07 PM   #41

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Originally Posted by SirOrmondeWinter View Post
He didn't 'let' it go down, it certainly ended the standoff, it pitched our country into a vicious civil war which killed thousands.
He know something was up but didn't move to arrest the Volunteers. In ended in a stand off with neither side getting their way completely. Home Rule was forced on Northern Ireland, and the South was able gain their freedom. As for a civil war that killed thousands, it may, in all fairness, would have been worse if it ended up between NI and the rest of the County into civil war.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 07:33 AM   #42
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He know something was up but didn't move to arrest the Volunteers. In ended in a stand off with neither side getting their way completely. Home Rule was forced on Northern Ireland, and the South was able gain their freedom. As for a civil war that killed thousands, it may, in all fairness, would have been worse if it ended up between NI and the rest of the County into civil war.
I'm not sure about that Anne Louise. Really, I doubt that he let it happen. Perhaps he could have moved sooner against the advanced nationalists but like everyone else he greatly underestimated them. In fact, a wave of repression against advanced nationalists would have caused more harm than it would have been worth. Birrell was a pragmatist and honestly I think that's all there is to it.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 02:18 PM   #43

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I'm not sure about that Anne Louise. Really, I doubt that he let it happen. Perhaps he could have moved sooner against the advanced nationalists but like everyone else he greatly underestimated them. In fact, a wave of repression against advanced nationalists would have caused more harm than it would have been worth. Birrell was a pragmatist and honestly I think the that's all there is to it.
Sounds like to me that he was between a rock and a hard place, your right about making a wave of repression against advanced nationalist doing more harm. I think when he left for London after the arms shipment was sunk he may have felt he dodged a bullet. I think arrest was in the plans, but he didn't move soon enough, if he know anything about Irish History he would have arrest the leaders at the beginning of Holy Week, Easter Sunday 23 April fell on the of the Battle of Clontarf. Arresting the leaders wouldn't have been a wave of repression. By procrastinating, in a sense he did let it happen.

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Old June 26th, 2018, 01:25 AM   #44

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He know something was up but didn't move to arrest the Volunteers. In ended in a stand off with neither side getting their way completely. Home Rule was forced on Northern Ireland, and the South was able gain their freedom. As for a civil war that killed thousands, it may, in all fairness, would have been worse if it ended up between NI and the rest of the County into civil war.
He didn't move to arrest them YET, it was on the cards. The South was always free, it was part of Britain after all, NI took HR because we could see that the Asquith's and Birrell's of this world (and many would argue the Heath's, Wilson's and Callaghan's) didn't understand the threat Unionists faced from Nationalists and we were better off handling our own security.

As for your latter assertion, I'm genuinely not sure, the Irish Volunteers and UVF were each 100,000 strong, a genuine battle between the 2 (or the Army suppressing either or both) would probably have resulted in many more casualties than the 5000 or so between the start of the Easter Rising and end of the Civil War. But would that ever have materialised? Would the IV ever have marched on NI?
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Old June 26th, 2018, 02:01 AM   #45
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I just uploaded the 3rd one


Two comments :

1. You ignore the impact that the Rising had on Irish Constitutionalism.
Prior to the War in 1914, John Redmond their leader, had achieved his life's work, passing of the Irish Home Rule Bill, suspended for the duration of the War.

At that stage, the Irish MPs sitting in the Westminster Parliament had achieve a solid block and were the dominant voice of Irish Catholics.

The Easter Rising, was a direct challenge to parliamentarianism and a challenge to their right to speak for Ireland.

In hindsight its is possible see that the British disastrous handling of the Rising paved the way for the success of Sinn Fein in the 1918 election.

The big losers were the Irish catholic moderates.

2. You dismiss the IRC as a para-military body cantoned in barracks.

I think you should explain that this resulted from the fact that the IV had targeted them for assassination. The initial killings of the police were very unpopular and condemned by the Church but these coupled with intimidation were very effective in removing the Catholic Constabulary from residing in the locality and being accepted by the general public.

Ohterwise, pat yourself on the back for excellent detail you provide.
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Old June 26th, 2018, 12:54 PM   #46

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Originally Posted by SirOrmondeWinter View Post
He didn't move to arrest them YET, it was on the cards. The South was always free, it was part of Britain after all, NI took HR because we could see that the Asquith's and Birrell's of this world (and many would argue the Heath's, Wilson's and Callaghan's) didn't understand the threat Unionists faced from Nationalists and we were better off handling our own security.

As for your latter assertion, I'm genuinely not sure, the Irish Volunteers and UVF were each 100,000 strong, a genuine battle between the 2 (or the Army suppressing either or both) would probably have resulted in many more casualties than the 5000 or so between the start of the Easter Rising and end of the Civil War. But would that ever have materialised? Would the IV ever have marched on NI?
I wouldn't call being apart of Great Britain free. Unionist were just paranoid. And 5000 was a bit high. And Lloyd George threaten to tax Ulster at the same rate as they taxed Britain if they turned down Home Rule.

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Old June 26th, 2018, 01:07 PM   #47

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1. You ignore the impact that the Rising had on Irish Constitutionalism.
Prior to the War in 1914, John Redmond their leader, had achieved his life's work, passing of the Irish Home Rule Bill, suspended for the duration of the War.
One comment on Home Rule, it passed but wasn't going to be implemented without partition, the impasse with Ulster wasn't resolved, and if Home Rule was passed for the whole island it would have failed and Ireland would be back under Britain. And Dominion Status was a step up from Home Rule.
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Old June 26th, 2018, 10:41 PM   #48

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I wouldn't call being apart of Great Britain free. Unionist were just paranoid. And 5000 was a bit high. And Lloyd George threaten to tax Ulster at the same rate as they taxed Britain if they turned down Home Rule.
We WEREN'T part of Great Britain, that's England, Scotland and Wales, we are part of Britain and that's the freest country in the world. Paranoid? Are you kidding? EVERYTHING we feared came 100% true! What exactly were we paranoid about?

As for the tax, so?
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Old June 26th, 2018, 10:42 PM   #49

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One comment on Home Rule, it passed but wasn't going to be implemented without partition, the impasse with Ulster wasn't resolved, and if Home Rule was passed for the whole island it would have failed and Ireland would be back under Britain. And Dominion Status was a step up from Home Rule.
It would have failed but that's what made partition the obvious solution, the government should have just grasped the nettle sooner.
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Old June 27th, 2018, 01:37 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by peccavi View Post
Two comments :

1. You ignore the impact that the Rising had on Irish Constitutionalism.
Prior to the War in 1914, John Redmond their leader, had achieved his life's work, passing of the Irish Home Rule Bill, suspended for the duration of the War.

At that stage, the Irish MPs sitting in the Westminster Parliament had achieve a solid block and were the dominant voice of Irish Catholics.

The Easter Rising, was a direct challenge to parliamentarianism and a challenge to their right to speak for Ireland.

In hindsight its is possible see that the British disastrous handling of the Rising paved the way for the success of Sinn Fein in the 1918 election.

The big losers were the Irish catholic moderates.

2. You dismiss the IRC as a para-military body cantoned in barracks.

I think you should explain that this resulted from the fact that the IV had targeted them for assassination. The initial killings of the police were very unpopular and condemned by the Church but these coupled with intimidation were very effective in removing the Catholic Constabulary from residing in the locality and being accepted by the general public.

Ohterwise, pat yourself on the back for excellent detail you provide.
The first episode only goes until 1914, the outbreak of WWI so it's a little soon for that.

The rest of what you say will come in good time. Rest assured, nothing will be ignored!
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