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Old July 11th, 2018, 05:51 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus View Post
Ancient cultures lived near rivers and most rivers are formed from the melting snow and Ice of the Mountains, that is why most creation stories involve Ice Giants and they formed from the clouds, or Nephele, Nibiru , Niflheim. Nephilim.

νέφος - Cloud
νεφέλη - Fallen Clouds

Rivers relating to words meaning 'burning or fire' , for they formed from melting Ice & Snow and ICE was more valuable then Gold in Ancient times, useless for Food preservation and Wine Cooling, thus cultures where Ice was abundant flourished.
Are you sure those don't come from the Indo-European *nebhes (moisture) or *nebhos (cloud)?
https://indo-european.info/pokorny-e..._m̥bh.htm
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Old July 11th, 2018, 06:05 AM   #12
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Most hunter gather populations lived in riverine, esturine or lacustrine locations, because of the water and food supply. They would live say, on the coast for much of the year but move inland during the hunting season for particular animals, for furs and hides, bones antler and meat. Marsden moor, one of the UK's primary mesolithic sites is littered with flint finds and nappings, although there is no flint locally. The flint came from further east, from the Yorkshire Wolds. The suggestion is that coastal dwellers had a summer hunting season inland but had access to fish and shellfish all year round.

Star Carr is a famous site which was a settlement on the edge of lake Pickering, now gone, a lake which formed from the glacial meltwater.

Creswell craggs is a paleolithic site which was inhabited only 50 miles south of the ice sheet. The people lived in the caves and appear to have hunted mammoth. The caves have some of the earliest cave art in europe.

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http://www.creswell-crags.org.uk/Images/img_large11.jpg




Of course, we have no idea about their language. The palaeolithic gave way to the mesolithic which in turn gave way to the neolithic and the onset of farming. However, the first farmers were not indo europeans who appear to be more associated with the spread of metallurgy.
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Old July 11th, 2018, 06:16 AM   #13
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This is a stone built village currently being excavated on the Ness of Brodgar on Main Island, Orkney Islands. It is older than Stonehenge. The change from simply built henges to building more massively appears to start here and move southwards into Britain. These were not IE peoples but certainly had a language. One of the larges howes in Britain is close by;

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The walls are stone.


Maeshowe represents a change in scale from earlier tombs.


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Old July 11th, 2018, 06:21 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by FlatAssembler View Post
Are you sure those don't come from the Indo-European *nebhes (moisture) or *nebhos (cloud)?
https://indo-european.info/pokorny-e..._m̥bh.htm
From etymonline:

*nebh-

Proto-Indo-European root meaning "cloud."

It forms all or part of: nebula; nebular; nebulosity; nebulous; Neptune; Nibelungenlied; Niflheim; nimbus.

It is the hypothetical source of/evidence for its existence is provided by: Sanskrit nabhas- "vapor, cloud, mists, fog, sky;" Greek nephele, nephos "cloud;" Latin nebula "mist, vapor, fog, smoke, exhalation;" German Nebel "fog;" Old English nifol "dark, gloomy;" Welsh niwl "cloud, fog;" Slavic nebo.
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Old July 12th, 2018, 05:10 AM   #15
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These were not IE peoples but certainly had a language.
Every human society has a language. If they don't inherit it from somewhere, a new language develops (a pidgin).
I don't doubt the people of Old Europe had a language.
I don't doubt they had place names, perhaps even more than modern languages have.
I don't doubt a few of them survived thousands of years into modern languages, though probably folk-etymologized and apparently fitting them.

What I am asking is if there are some toponyms that probably predate the Indo-European languages, yet we can guess their meanings with some certainty? For example, the Croatian hydronyms Krbavica, Karasica, Krapina, Korana and Krka probably share a root meaning "to flow".
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Old July 12th, 2018, 08:11 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by FlatAssembler View Post
Every human society has a language. If they don't inherit it from somewhere, a new language develops (a pidgin).

The post was in response to the suggestion that IE languages were somehow connected to people who lived in marginal climates.
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Old July 13th, 2018, 01:13 AM   #17
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When I recently heard live speech of Gaels for the first time - I was amazed how much it resembled the sound of the Mari Finno-Ugric language - the people that live in the Middle Volga. My wife is from those lands

One of the characteristic genotypes in the Mari is black-haired people with very white skin. I think there was some very old ethnic tight
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Old July 13th, 2018, 01:18 AM   #18
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As far as I know, historians are primarily tracked by hydronyms the very early linguistic affiliation of ethnic groups that once lived in a particular locality. Or rather - by the names of medium and large rivers in that region. The rivers rarely change their names for thousands of years
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