pisces87saw

I just finished a very good article in the August '06 issue of BBC History (I know, I'm a little behind, lol) about "the way in which football illuminates the historical development of Germany's relationship with England". Here's an excerpt:

"The Second World War ended over 60 years ago. And yet, despite the emphasis placed by the British and German governments upon the excellent state of their relationship - meeting at Berlin in February 2006 Tony Blair and Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, reaffirmed the point - the two countries have yet to learn to live comfortably together at all levels of society. A substantial gap remains between a predominantly harmonious official bilateral relationship and a frequently hostile British media discourse focused upon a Germany that no longer exists. Certainly, football's role in mirroring, influencing and articulating British perceptions of Germany, at least at the popular and media level, should never be underestimated. In fact, the German Academic Exchange Service (DAAD) is currently exploiting such stereotyping in annual essay competitions organised for British university students on the subject of "But don't mention the war"."

I'd never really thought about it before, but there really is a certain prejudice surrounding Germany. When most people hear the word, they instantly think of Hitler and the Nazis. People never really consider that Germany is just like the European countries surrounding it.

I think part of the reason is that people like having a country that "they're better than", just like most people have someone that they compare themselves to, but I think the biggest problem surrounding such attitudes is a combination of bad educators, the media constantly bringing up Germany's Nazi past, and people being blind to their own ignorance.

Lucius

Well, psychology notwithstanding, Germany did put Europe through the wringer. Give it another 100 years.

I mean, if one wants to have a country that he's "better than", who's that going to be? France? Not since 1870.

Has the U.S. totally lived down it's Jim Crow regime? Depends who you ask.

Nick

Is it surprising we don't like the Germans? They dragged Europe into World War 1, decimating an entire generation, and started World War 2 by invading Poland. During the war they were resposible for the worst atrocities, the systematic and brutal extermination of countless Jews and Slavs. They were also responsible for the genocide of the Herero people in Africa in the early 1900s

Nikd

Please take in mind that other thing is the government and other is the people and the nation of one country.
If we take the facts as you say then allow me to say one more fact : evolution. The nations that exist today are they or not the strongest in the world? Have not all nations start wars with other nations? And we know that the war was not won by the gentlest side.
I think that Germans and English have much more common things that you think. Both have Saxon descendant in their blood lines. It's not a coincidence that both languages share many words.
I don't neither think (if we see documents signed by Hitler) that the Germans feel hate for English.
And most important the English treated well the Germans soldier and citizen, so for me there is no prejudice or hatred between both nations.

Monsieur Stark

Well, they were not alone in the atrocities they committed. How about those Russians? Did Stalin not have 30 million of his own country's citizens slaughtered? Yet the Russians don't have nearly as negative an image as the Germans, at least not here in the NE USA.

Kris

I'm friends with a lot of Germans and lived in Munich when I was about 5 or so. I think out of all the Germans I've met, there's only been one that particularly got on my nerves. Mostly they've been overly nice, as if they've been somewhat humbled by their dark history.

PADDYBOY

I have a lot of respect for the Germans. They are survivors and achievers, and that makes them O.K. in my book. There is a lot of history and rivalry
amongst European nations though, especially where football (soccer) is
concerned?




The skill of polotics is to convince the people that what is good for you. is good for them?

JHicks

Tecnacly the germans arent responsible for WW2. In 1939 the Britian and France declared war on Germany. Germany didnt declare war on Britian and France. So based on these facts the allies are the ones who started the war.

POTUS

I saw a recient article that had a list of most respected countries in Europe, formed by many polls in different countries in Europe, and it named Germany #1 most respected. I looked for it on the internet but couldn't find it so don't bother asking for a source. (saw it in newspaper if it helps)

Edgewaters

In a way, yes it is very surprising.

One of the basis for rejecting the Nazi racial doctrine is that it claims to predict the behaviour and even discern the motivations of individuals based on their heritage. Which is exactly what we do with the German stereotype.

The average German wasn't even alive for any of these events. The events themselves were products of history, geography, economy, the politics of state ... not some Nazi gene! If there was such a thing, then it would probably not be confined to Germany, but be present in most populations of Western Europe, including Britain, France, the Scandinavian nations, etc.

Germany's behaviour since the war, and since reunification, has been exemplary, far better than most middle or major powers. It is a very progressive society, it is not imperialistic, it does not invade Third World nations 2-3 times a decade, it gets along well with its neighbours and has no outstanding transnational disputes (which is remarkable ... almost every country has multiple disputed territorial claims, including Canada, the US, and the UK).

Also, Germany did not "drag all of Europe" into WW1. If it was anyone in particular, it was the Austro-Hungarians. Germany did nothing to trigger anyone else's collective defense agreements.

A-H declared war on Serbia. Russia had a collective defense treaty with Serbia, so it was triggered. This simultaneously triggered France and Britain, who had similar treaties with Russia. Germany doesn't even figure into the equation for any other power declaring, except that its treaty with A-H forced it in (the same as Britain's treaty with Russia forced it in). Whether it abided by the pact with A-H or not, would not affect the entry of any other power.

If Germany could have ignored its pact and stayed out; then so could Russia. Or Britain. Or France. Thus, all the participants (except perhaps A-H) were about equally responsible for their involvement and the escalation of the situation. The entire thing was automatic as soon as A-H declared on Serbia, a domino effect.