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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:36 AM   #101
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So what you say is basically that conquerors do not oppress conquered, at last for most part and all this oppression is fake and made up by ungrateful chauvinistic conquered?
People get used to it, even in Camps, and do their best to please Master and stay alive, surely?
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Old November 7th, 2012, 12:28 PM   #102

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People get used to it, even in Camps, and do their best to please Master and stay alive, surely?
No they do not. We would not have so many independence movements and revolts otherwise. If people would get used to it, world would be one large prison camp long time ago.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 12:33 PM   #103
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No they do not. We would not have so many independence movements and revolts otherwise. If people would get used to it, world would be one large prison camp long time ago.
That is because you have all these terrorists and fanatics, and people who rant on about Hitler and such. Conquerors obviously oppress the conquered, but until there is a reasonable chance of success the violence they used is just filed away by those they bully. Why else would you get empires?
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Old November 7th, 2012, 01:02 PM   #104

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So what you say is basically that conquerors do not oppress conquered, at last for most part and all this oppression is fake and made up by ungrateful chauvinistic conquered?
Basically, apart from the lack of gratitude element, that's correct.

"Oppression" is defined as a prolonged period of cruel, arbitary and unjust exercise of power often by the use of force. After the revolutionaries, freedom fighters, nationalists, whatever come to power they almost always search for extreme examples of any and all misdeeds carried out by the departed "conquerers" to act as iconic examples of how they were "oppressed" to justify their actions. The reality for most people was usually quite different, they got on with their lives and made the best of it.

Conquerors prefer a docile compliant conquered population, continual arbitrary cruelty runs the risk of the conquered being driven to desperation, so is counter-productive. Conquerors have always been aware of the following statement, even if only intuitively,

"There can be no really pervasive system of oppression . . . without the consent of the oppressed" (Florynce R. Kennedy).
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:19 PM   #105

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I read a lot of comments on here which are very wrong. First, the island is divided due to politics, not because the people want it that way! We lived on the island peacefully with each other until the invasion. And it is very very wrong to say we dispise/or hate Turkish people or Turkish Cyprians as we do not have hate in our hearts. We have bitterness yes for what happened but we the people had no control. Our lives, our destinies were destroyed and then controlled by governments who used us the people as pawns in a game! To this day our lives have been lost, destroyed and compromised!!!!! None of you suffered and none of you witnessed the war. So words of hate should not be mentioned on here.
Now you know very well that the communities were not living in peaceful co-existence before 1974. Some were maybe, but what about the targeted murders of Turkish policemen by EOKA? What about the enclaving of 30,000 Turks? What about the murders of Turkish Cypriots in Famagusta in 1963? What about the Turkish rioting and both sides involving themselves in tit-for-tat revenge? In 1967 Grivas's men were openly attacking the enclaves.
I am not apportioning blame, I've seen the Turks' atrocity photowall in Famagusta and the Greeks' photowall in Paralimni, it just seems to be an intractable problem that is now in the DNA or both sides.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 10:50 PM   #106

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i think the island could have been kept undivided for a bit longer if makarios was not couped out. he also was supporting enosis but he believed that if they constantly harassed the turks they would eventually leave the island and then enosis will be realized. but sampson on the other hand, he wanted a "quicker" solution (at least ordered to do so).
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Old November 7th, 2012, 11:14 PM   #107

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It isnt historic issue. All they would live is paying to a state who has no sponsored religions no sponsored nationality, simply who has no sponsored discrimination.

Also compensation of losses on both sides required which wouldnt be so costly for Turkey.

It is as simple as that.

Why complicating the issue with DNA, Ottoman history, Greece vs. Turkish conflicts?The problem is those people who complicate.

If Cypriots dont want to live in the same state, let the Cyprus divide as they wished.

Edit: Turkey shouldnt withdraw from the island before the peace is guarantied.

Last edited by Efendi; November 7th, 2012 at 11:50 PM.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 01:48 AM   #108

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Basically, apart from the lack of gratitude element, that's correct.

"Oppression" is defined as a prolonged period of cruel, arbitary and unjust exercise of power often by the use of force. After the revolutionaries, freedom fighters, nationalists, whatever come to power they almost always search for extreme examples of any and all misdeeds carried out by the departed "conquerers" to act as iconic examples of how they were "oppressed" to justify their actions. The reality for most people was usually quite different, they got on with their lives and made the best of it.

Conquerors prefer a docile compliant conquered population, continual arbitrary cruelty runs the risk of the conquered being driven to desperation, so is counter-productive. Conquerors have always been aware of the following statement, even if only intuitively,

"There can be no really pervasive system of oppression . . . without the consent of the oppressed" (Florynce R. Kennedy).
As a Brit, you should know better. Empires are not conquered because of altruism but because you want to extract something from conquered. And to do it you need oppression in one form or another. People will not give you their resources, their wealth and work for you because you have blue eyes. Having docile population is not about pampering conquered, rather about threatening them with even harsher oppression. And there are other techniques, manipulation for example, propaganda and so on.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 01:58 AM   #109

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As a Brit, you should know better. Empires are not conquered because of altruism but because you want to extract something from conquered. And to do it you need oppression in one form or another. People will not give you their resources, their wealth and work for you because you have blue eyes. Having docile population is not about pampering conquered, rather about threatening them with even harsher oppression. And there are other techniques, manipulation for example, propaganda and so on.
Of course there is oppression. If there is state, there is oppression. Oppression is not exclusive to foreigners. And ruling by conquest was the way of the world. A good historian should never consider the past with today's values and as Belisarius said, such horrible oppression stories are always created by nationalist leaders or groups to achieve some kind of either national independency or legit claims for war. Such is the human way..
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Old November 8th, 2012, 02:31 AM   #110

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Of course there is oppression. If there is state, there is oppression. Oppression is not exclusive to foreigners. And ruling by conquest was the way of the world. A good historian should never consider the past with today's values and as Belisarius said, such horrible oppression stories are always created by nationalist leaders or groups to achieve some kind of either national independency or legit claims for war. Such is the human way..
I do not challenge his view that stories of oppression are used to achieve national independence. I challenge his opinion that such stories are entirely made up and fake and conquerors mostly newer oppress conquered.
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