Anna James

There was a fight here, and I missed it! Nevertheless I read most of the thread ad was surprised at statements like this ones:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester
As a Western European most Westerners perceive Eastern Europe as being slightly backward, corrupt and poor.
Sankari:
Because it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arras
So Western European attitude until recently was that there is Western Europe ...which for awerage Western European is The Europe and then there is perhaps "Wild West" and rest is "hic abundant leones"
Sankari:
Considering Western Europeans' vast contribution to human civilisation over 2,000 years, I don't think that's entirely unreasonable.

Eastern Europe has given us blood feuds, multi-ethnic violence, a bit of good music, and 101 different uses for a potato. Thanks guys.
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Now, I'm used to be asked "Bulgaria? That's in Russia, right?", but I didn't expect that the whole Eastern Europe is so misunderstood, considering that

in consists of 20 and some /some states in process of making/, with very different history, languages, and cultures. There is nothing in common between the culture and history of say, Estonia as Macedonia, or Lithuania and Albania. So, how can they be put in one bag, and characterized as a region to start with?

Now, my personal guess why the individual cultures of those countries are not recognized as such is that the very diversity of the area causes it so. Normally to get a whiff of the culture of one region one tries to get a book about it, and educate himself/herself, and if they get more interested, they may try to learn the language of the said cou.try in order to experience the literary and historical value of it from the source. Say, my sphere of interest is the English literature - so I learn English, and as a bonus for learning it I get to learn not only about the English literature, but of this of Canada, USA, Australia. So, here I have a entrance to the cultures of at least 3 countries, so I get to learn something about them.

Now, say, someone is interested in Eastern Europe - they have to learn at least 20 languages, hard as nails, which is impossible task. So, then this person figures that they will read something in translation - which they most probably will not find - I never saw in the US a translated work by a Bulgarian writer, medieval, classical, or modern. So, then the person I talk about can decide that there is nothing there anyway...

As a result, say, Arras will probably know more about Canada that Sankari about Slovenia; of course this doesn't mean that Slovenia doesn't have anything to offer, only that Sankari doesn't have entrance to it, as Arras has to Canada.

Anyway, I would like here people to share some ideas about the countries in Eastern Europe they know, are from, know about, are interested in, or have questions about. I would like we to see those countries as unique cultural entities, and to break the image that the iron curtain imposed on the world that Eastern Europe is one cultural monolith, which is as far from the truth as we can get.

Sankari

arras was the only person talking about Eastern Europe as "terra incognita." This was his (mis)characterisation of West European opinions. I went to great lengths to show that Western knowledge of Eastern Europe is far more extensive than his stereotype allows.

It's true that some West Europeans are still largely ignorant of Eastern Europe's advances over the past 20 years. But those advances are limited, and many of the old problems persist: violence, poverty, underdevelopment, corruption, crime.

Anna James

Would you specify, when talking of violence, poverty, underdevelopment, and crime, which exactly of the more than 20 countries you mean, and in which point on the timeline? You cannot bag the whole area in one bag, this is my main point. And give us examples, with sources and quotes. Btw, I see more poverty where I live know, in WA state of the US, then when I lived in Sofia, Bulgaria. At least no one there lives in motorhomes in the end of geography, without electricity and water, and grow pot in their backyard, as I see here bunch of people do.

Next, I'm not talking about "advances" only, I'm talking about the past and the cultures of those 20 countries that you said contributed nothing to the 2 millenia of human civilization. Every one of those countries has a unique history, and I dare say every one contributed something to the human civilization. I actually happen to agree with arras, after reading the first part of the thread I mentioned here. My point is that the Eastern European knows more about the Western Europe, the US, Canada and Australia that the other way around - and this is a result mostly of the variety of cultures and languages that the former has.

Kraken

Most of eastern Europe was under communist rule for quite some time, so that no doubt limited their productivity in certain fields.

Labienus

Eastern Europe is catching up with Western Europe, slowly but surely

I can't wait to see the Euro 2012 in Poland-Ukraine.

Kraken

Budapest, Hungary is widely esteemed as one of the most amazing cities in Europe.

And one cannot slowly count out all the contributions and brilliant minds that Russia has produced.

Anna James

When we talk about economic development, here is a map of the GDP per capita for 2010

File:Average GDP PPP per capita 2010.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Blue is above average, orange below average; so, Eastern Europe with the exception of only 3 country is above average. This hardly seems to me like "poverty and underdevelopment".

Anna James

Some cool pictures from Budapest on this site Pictures of Budapest

And here http://www.molon.de/galleries/Hungary/Budapest/Buda/

Sankari

How much time do you think I have?

I'll provide an overview:

(Source).

Also:

• Epidemic of Gender-based Violence in Eastern Europe and Central Asia Documented in New Adolescent Data Guides
• Child Abuse and Neglect in Eastern Europe
• Corruption Perceptions Index 2010 (yellow is "very clean"; red is "highly corrupt")
• Where Trust is High, Crime and Corruption are Low
• Eastern European Unemployment Rates Weigh on Recovery, World Bank Says

Sure, you will find poverty in any developed country. But comparisons between an economically depressed area in the USA and a national capital in Eastern Europe are not helpful.

Of course they've contributed something. Nobody's said they haven't contributed anything.

That's nonsense. If East Europeans know more about the West, it's because we told them! Western culture is the dominant one, and we've succeeded in projecting our culture into Eastern Europe via capitalism (largely television, music, and consumer products). That's how East Europeans know so much about the West.

Sankari

That's for the entire world! Not difficult to scrape into "above average" when you're being compared to places like Somalia.

Why don't you compare Eastern Europe to Western Europe? I'd like to see how they match up in terms of poverty, crime, corruption, democracy, economy, industry and education.