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Old July 21st, 2011, 06:51 AM   #11

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Tell me one family in the PLC that devoted all their strenght and fortunes to destroy the PLC? Only a couple of black sheeps choose the dark side but not entire families.

The PLC was the successor of Rome, had its own Senate and Sejm so ofc there were different groups in the politics.

This is actually truth. There were many commanders/nobles who payed royal or Lithuanian army from their own money and who used their private armies in defence of Republic.

Unfortunatelly they were using their armies also one against another, what was destabilisng country. Somtimes they were also invading other countries without even asking for permission of the king or for permission of parliament (Sejm)
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 06:13 AM   #12
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Unfortunatelly they were using their armies also one against another, what was destabilisng country. Somtimes they were also invading other countries without even asking for permission of the king or for permission of parliament (Sejm)
A good example must be the civil war in the PLC when the powerful
Sapieha Sapieha
family, most powerful in the Grand Duchy, was opposed by the coalition of several other families: Radziwiłł, Wiśniowiecki, Pac and Ogiński.The family got destroyed and almost vanished from the politics for good and choose a more passive role in the PLC.

And Lisowczycy irregular unit must be the finest example when it comes to invade other countries without the sejms permission. But they were an very effective unit if even they lacked discipline. harased the Russian border and even succesfully helped the catholic league in the 30 year war.
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Old July 22nd, 2011, 11:20 PM   #13
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I agree with Edward, great nobles families did play negative role in history of PLC. If we have a look at the history, they were mainly responsible for anarchy in PLC, they opposed to king since sedition of Zebrzydowski. PLC has been constantly divided between opposed groups of magnats. Sometimes they had a bigger army than kings, and it was used for their own purpose rather than motherland. They also were against centralization, that`s why PLC have been unable in XVIII century to organized modern army which could be used to discourage potential opponents.
The King election become a farce played between wealthy families with financial involvement of foreign powers.
This was organized by and used for Magnates advantage.
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Old July 23rd, 2011, 04:09 AM   #14
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Hard to deny the Polish-Lithuanian noblity was responsible for the fall of the Commonwealth in the late 18th century. According to the Polish historian Pawel Jasienica, it was the Jagiellonian dynasty who was originally to blame. The Jagiellonian monarchs made the fatal mistake of relying mainly on great landowners, not on commoners or smaller gentry. Their policy led to the rise of great noble families at the expense of other (more productive) classes.

At the same time England had the incredible luck to lose most of its aristocracy - the nobs exterminated each other in the Wars of the Roses. The Tudor monarchs, constantly wary of a noble pretender having their throat cut, had the sense to rely on commoners.

Still, it is would have been wonderful if the lavish palaces, mansions and castles of the Polish-Lithuanian nobility had survived to this day, not destroyed and looted by successive invaders (a friend told me he'd seen lots of Polish valuables gracing Swedish museums )

The Krzyżtopór Castle of the Ossolinski family, for example, would have been a sight (according to the owners caprice, it had as many windows as there are days in a year, as many rooms as there are weeks, twelve grand halls for the number of months, and four towers for four seasons. Plus a gigantic aquarium forming the ceiling of one of the ballrooms ) There were so many other mansions, less pretentious but beautifully prortioned, which were irretrievably lost - only etchings, documentary photos or ruins survive. What remains is (as the American author of an article about Warsaw put it) "only the shards and sediment of several war-torn centuries".
Jagiellonian monarchs did what had to be done to secure their power in the country. without them there would have not been a Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

And there is still plenty of palaces and mansions that are not in ruin. You can even buy one for a very cheap price from the goverment aslong you got the money to restore it.

Anyway most of the palaces and mansions today are stolen property by the communists and should be returned to their rightfull owners, the szlachta.

The cost of Krzyżtopór Castle was over 30 milj Zloty, and in those times that was a huge amount. how much would that be in todays currency?
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Old November 9th, 2012, 05:57 AM   #15
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The King election become a farce played between wealthy families with financial involvement of foreign powers.
This was organized by and used for Magnates advantage.
Just like in todays USA hehe
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Old November 9th, 2012, 06:25 AM   #16

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Just like in todays USA hehe

Understand that the above was a throw-away joke, however the convention that drafted the American constitution was in fact sensitive to Russian, Prussian, Swedish influence on the Polish system.

However, the system they devised to elect the Chief Executive was within the communications and travel realities of their day. Telegraph and rail travel, let alone the internet, make American device of "Electoral College" a weakness of American Republican system. Mods: I referenced rail travel so I am not bringing up contemporary politics.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 05:30 AM   #17
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Understand that the above was a throw-away joke, however the convention that drafted the American constitution was in fact sensitive to Russian, Prussian, Swedish influence on the Polish system.
How so? ^^
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 07:47 AM   #18

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Is it true that the Polish nobles would only speak Latin?
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 11:03 PM   #19
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Is it true that the Polish nobles would only speak Latin?
They did so in the 13-16'th century. And somewhere in the 17-18'th century it changed to Polish.
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