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Old October 26th, 2011, 10:44 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by arras View Post
I would agree if it would be 350 000 people from Upper Hungary, current Slovakia. But it is from territory of contemporary Hungary:

You claim that there were mere 140 000 Slovaks living there but 350 000 Hungarians who had them for parents, grandparents, husband and wives? That is 3 Hungarians for every Slovak parent, grandparent and wife/husband. And that only if you assume, that ALL Slovaks in that territory intermarried Hungarians! And all Hungarians with such relations learned Slovak language.

Bye the way, according to same census, in towns and vilages of Liptov, which was ethnically very clean Slovak territory were tens if not hundreds thousands Hungarians living (I have this claim form secondary sources however, I do not remember exact numbers).
Ok let's see the correct numbers
Sorry but I only have data from 1920

slovak motherthunge 141 882
speaks slovak buth not mothertounge 243 955

you can see that in Békés county how these bilingual groups disappeared (died out) after most of slovaks left the region.
1920
slovaks 53 000
speaks slovak 33 000

1930
slovak motherthounge 43 000
speaks slovak 41 000

1941
slovak motherthounge 42 000
speaks slovak 43 000

1949
slovak motherthounge 16 000
speaks slovak 38 000

1960
slovak motherthounge 17 000
speak slovaks 41 000

1990
slovak motherthounge 5 000
slovak speakers 18 000


though the language disappears the identity can be kept if we support it and don't see it as a threat

slovak nationality in

Békéscsaba
1980 679
1990 820
2001 1687

Szarvas
1980 307
1990 82
2001 466

Pilisszentkereszt
1980 594
1990 996
2001 1185

Erdőkürt
1980 134
1990 148
2001 185



-hungarian nobility lived in north Slovakia till 1945
-there was a significant hungarian-german-jew population in northern slovakian towns who kept this liberal hungarian bi-trilingual identity till 1945 when the left/forced to leave the country (for example the hungarian party got 14% in Banska Bystrica in the 1938 elections, they always were around 20-30% in Presov - the hungarian coalition got the german voters in eastern slovakia ect ect)
-there were assimilated slovaks as well (good examples Tuka or Tiso)
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Old October 26th, 2011, 11:34 AM   #12
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I would agree if it would be 350 000 people from Upper Hungary, current Slovakia. But it is from territory of contemporary Hungary
there was no boundary between Upper Hungary and contemporary Hungary back then and there was continous immigration from the north since 18th century starting with new settlers after end of Ottoman wars and continoued until 20th century including several Slovak speakers to the back then booming Budapest. And in same way Hungarian speakers also migrated from upper Hungary to the center (and sure many could speak Slovak as second language). Anyways as far as i know the peak for people with Slovak mother tongue within contemporary Hungary was in the 1880 census, when around 199,000 declared Slovak as mother tongue, after this there was continous decline.

(and of course Slovak speakers not only intermerried with Hungarians but with Germans and others too)

Yes there can be manipulation of censuses but overall the state intention was and is always to have accurate numbers so they can measure the effectivity of their policies and use the datas for further planning. In 1910 they didnt know there was Trianon danger and in 1920 census it was already too late anyways to manipulate numbers for better peace treaty...


Quote:
Bye the way, according to same census, in towns and vilages of Liptov, which was ethnically very clean Slovak territory were tens if not hundreds thousands Hungarians living (I have this claim form secondary sources however, I do not remember exact numbers).
Liptov county/Liptó vármegye

1880 data 1.99% of the population had Hungarian mother tongue (1490 ppl)
Total who could speak Hungarian in the county 4,64% (3470 ppl)

1890 data 2.3% Hungarian mother tongue (1771 ppl)
Total who could speak Hungarian 7,07% (5434 ppl)

1900 data 3,3% Hungarian mother tongue (2671 ppl)
Total who could speak Hungarian 9,4% (7717 ppl)

1910 data 5,02% Hungarian mother tongue (4365 ppl)
I didnt find total number who could speak Hungarian for this year (for the previous ones i have detailed datas from Hungarian Statistical Yearbooks, for this now i only found number in the Magyar Katolikus Lexikon) but based on increase between the previous censuses (around 2,4% growth in a decade) i say total percentage of people who could speak Hungarian would be around 11,8-12% in 1910 in Liptó county. that means since Liptó county had this year total population of 86906 ppl, around 10200-10500 could speak Hungarian, but this is only my estimate.

Last edited by Tulun; October 26th, 2011 at 11:45 AM.
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Old October 30th, 2011, 09:24 AM   #13

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It seems that the tension between Slovaks and Magyars will never end not even in modern days as many people gaining their political capital from this fact even these days.

There were two different tensions in Austrian Empire.
1. Czechs-Austrians
2. Slovaks-Magyars (Hungarians) - not sure which name is correct.
Both tensions were a little different.

I think that situation of Czechs in empire was better than situation of Slovaks.
The most important difference is that Czech lands were more important for Empire because were much richer, larger and even military power of Czech troops was higher.
The worst times for Czech came after 30.years war with germanization from Austria.
Causes were following: Czechs took side of protestant union against catholic league (Austria) so these heavy times were also some kind of revenge. However after these times were CZech lands very important part of empire because of industrial and trade potential so Austrians needed a relative calm here.

There is also a huge difference between mentality of these combinations. Czechs and Austrians are more conservative and settled but as Slovaks and Hungarians are much more temperament so many problems in Slovakia were solved by Hungarian sabre what was not so common here in Czech and what caused huge oposition in Slovak nation.

What is the most funny on the entire story is the fact that Hungary fought longtime for self determination inside of Austrian empire. They got their compromise in 1867 and it lead to creation of Austria-Hungary empire. Problem is that Hungary was not willing to give what they asked for. Self determination of Hungarians was good but self determination of nations lived in Hungary was totally unacceptable for Hungarians.
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Old October 30th, 2011, 10:54 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
It seems that the tension between Slovaks and Magyars will never end not even in modern days as many people gaining their political capital from this fact even these days.

There were two different tensions in Austrian Empire.
1. Czechs-Austrians
2. Slovaks-Magyars (Hungarians) - not sure which name is correct.
Both tensions were a little different.

I think that situation of Czechs in empire was better than situation of Slovaks.
The most important difference is that Czech lands were more important for Empire because were much richer, larger and even military power of Czech troops was higher.
The worst times for Czech came after 30.years war with germanization from Austria.
Causes were following: Czechs took side of protestant union against catholic league (Austria) so these heavy times were also some kind of revenge. However after these times were CZech lands very important part of empire because of industrial and trade potential so Austrians needed a relative calm here.

There is also a huge difference between mentality of these combinations. Czechs and Austrians are more conservative and settled but as Slovaks and Hungarians are much more temperament so many problems in Slovakia were solved by Hungarian sabre what was not so common here in Czech and what caused huge oposition in Slovak nation.

What is the most funny on the entire story is the fact that Hungary fought longtime for self determination inside of Austrian empire. They got their compromise in 1867 and it lead to creation of Austria-Hungary empire. Problem is that Hungary was not willing to give what they asked for. Self determination of Hungarians was good but self determination of nations lived in Hungary was totally unacceptable for Hungarians.

Actually it is more like a post Trianon thingy, there were hardly any serious violent events needing "sabre" in Hungarian-Slovak relations. There were several ethnic tensions within the Habsburg Empire, the Czech-German was among the bigger ones (as were the Austrian-Hungarian, the Austrian-Italian and so on) i agree, but the Hungarian-Slovak was insignificant both in Imperial level and within Hungary. in our part there was much bigger tension in Hungarian-Romanian, Hungarian-Croat, Hungarian-Serb relation (and Croat-Serb) since there were autonomous territories or outside national states of these nationalities. The Kingdom of Hungary was a distinct country within the Habsburg realm but there was no Slovakia within the Hungarian realm just some Hungarian counties with ethnic Slovak majorities in the north, this made them (self)determination harder. And yes Hungary fought a long way to finally gain the equal position with the Austrian side. Slovaks didnt. It wasnt a pressing issue in pre 1918 Hungary (as opposed to other nationality problems).
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Old October 30th, 2011, 12:08 PM   #15

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U are right, there was many more of tensions. Austrian empire was pretty multi kulti. I just focused on 4 nations because thread mentioning Magyars and Slovaks and I added Czechs because they created mutual country later and Czechoslovaks were repeately mentioned before. The worst part of empire was definitely Balkan because of concentration too many nationalities in a relatively small area.
I still trust that Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians and Poles can find mutual interests these days and some foolish proclamations of populistic politicians mainly in Hu and Sk will end. For example current Czech - Polish and Czech - Slovak relations are very good so why not to improve Sk-Hu relations. Even Cz-Hu relations are pretty calm and stable .
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Old October 30th, 2011, 02:30 PM   #16

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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
U are right, there was many more of tensions. Austrian empire was pretty multi kulti. I just focused on 4 nations because thread mentioning Magyars and Slovaks and I added Czechs because they created mutual country later and Czechoslovaks were repeately mentioned before. The worst part of empire was definitely Balkan because of concentration too many nationalities in a relatively small area.
I still trust that Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians and Poles can find mutual interests these days and some foolish proclamations of populistic politicians mainly in Hu and Sk will end. For example current Czech - Polish and Czech - Slovak relations are very good so why not to improve Sk-Hu relations. Even Cz-Hu relations are pretty calm and stable .

I think right now its a first time since the hussite wars when Poles and Czechs got good relations. If I remember well Poland was the only country which did support the Hussite Czechs inspite of preassure from papacy and Empire. But later and especially between 1918-1939 our relations were very bad.

But with Hungarians we always had very good relations.
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Old October 31st, 2011, 01:23 AM   #17

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Originally Posted by Mosquito View Post
I think right now its a first time since the hussite wars when Poles and Czechs got good relations. If I remember well Poland was the only country which did support the Hussite Czechs inspite of preassure from papacy and Empire. But later and especially between 1918-1939 our relations were very bad.

But with Hungarians we always had very good relations.
Not only during Hussite wars
A few next examples: Battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg) - Czech troops fought on Polish side and helped to defeat Teutonic knights.
Various wars against Turks. 1683 Battle of Vienna. I can mention 35th Czech regiment or Starhemberk regiment (Moravians).
I can also mention mixed Czech - Polish staff in Royal Air Force during ww2.
Of course there are more examples.

Yes, correct, the relations in 20th and 30s were unhapilly bad and it was missed opportunity to defeat Nazi Germany before it grew too much. If Czechoslovakia cooperated with Poland instead of meanless skirmishes we could smash them before ww2 has started.
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Old October 31st, 2011, 01:23 AM   #18

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Originally Posted by Tulun View Post
there was no boundary between Upper Hungary and contemporary Hungary back then and there was continous immigration from the north since 18th century starting with new settlers after end of Ottoman wars and continoued until 20th century including several Slovak speakers to the back then booming Budapest. And in same way Hungarian speakers also migrated from upper Hungary to the center (and sure many could speak Slovak as second language).
Yes, exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulun View Post
Anyways as far as i know the peak for people with Slovak mother tongue within contemporary Hungary was in the 1880 census, when around 199,000 declared Slovak as mother tongue, after this there was continous decline.
Yes, that is before Magyarization was adopted (Austro-Hungarian compromise was in 1867).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulun View Post
Yes there can be manipulation of censuses but overall the state intention was and is always to have accurate numbers so they can measure the effectivity of their policies and use the datas for further planning. In 1910 they didnt know there was Trianon danger and in 1920 census it was already too late anyways to manipulate numbers for better peace treaty...
There are also other intentions state have: like demonstrating unity of population or show effectiveness of various state politics, like Magyarization. State is composed of individual clerks and politicians and those have agendas. Popular censes were manipulated both in Czechoslovakia (post WWI) and in Hungary. In case of Hungary it is hard to tell at what margin as Slovaks were gradually assimilated there. In case of post war Czechoslovak censes it is easier as there was little assimilation and Hungarians tended to reclaim their ethnicity in later censes which gives opportunity to reconstruct their numbers in to the past. To some extend.

Generally, it is opinion of historians in Slovakia that after Trianon, between 400 - 600 000 people of Slovak origin were left in Hungary (in warious stages of assimilation). Number differs among individual historians with 500 000 to be most common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulun View Post
Liptov county/Liptó vármegye

1880 data 1.99% of the population had Hungarian mother tongue (1490 ppl)
Total who could speak Hungarian in the county 4,64% (3470 ppl)

1890 data 2.3% Hungarian mother tongue (1771 ppl)
Total who could speak Hungarian 7,07% (5434 ppl)

1900 data 3,3% Hungarian mother tongue (2671 ppl)
Total who could speak Hungarian 9,4% (7717 ppl)

1910 data 5,02% Hungarian mother tongue (4365 ppl)
I didnt find total number who could speak Hungarian for this year (for the previous ones i have detailed datas from Hungarian Statistical Yearbooks, for this now i only found number in the Magyar Katolikus Lexikon) but based on increase between the previous censuses (around 2,4% growth in a decade) i say total percentage of people who could speak Hungarian would be around 11,8-12% in 1910 in Liptó county. that means since Liptó county had this year total population of 86906 ppl, around 10200-10500 could speak Hungarian, but this is only my estimate.
You missunderstood me, I did not meant whole Liptov, which was predominately Slovak, just like those censes show. I meant some individual settlements. it was mentioned in Paris by member or members of Czechoslovak commission. I do not have lot of time now but I will try to find it and post.

Last edited by arras; October 31st, 2011 at 02:12 AM.
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Old October 31st, 2011, 01:35 AM   #19

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mofli87 View Post
though the language disappears the identity can be kept if we support it and don't see it as a threat

slovak nationality in

Békéscsaba
1980 679
1990 820
2001 1687
So there are Slovaks in Hungary who can't speak Slovak? Well that sheds some light on Hungarian minority education doesn't it?

There were many Slovaks settled in "Lower" Lands (present Hungary, Serbia, Croatia, Romania). Mostly result of migration process Tulun described after Turkic wars (when those areas were depopulated). There are Slovak minorities there still (like in Voivodina) with exception of Hungary, where Slovak minority disappeared. You want to tell me it is coincidence and Hungarians have nothing to do with it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mofli87 View Post
-hungarian nobility lived in north Slovakia till 1945
-there was a significant hungarian-german-jew population in northern slovakian towns who kept this liberal hungarian bi-trilingual identity till 1945 when the left/forced to leave the country (for example the hungarian party got 14% in Banska Bystrica in the 1938 elections, they always were around 20-30% in Presov - the hungarian coalition got the german voters in eastern slovakia ect ect)
-there were assimilated slovaks as well (good examples Tuka or Tiso)
And you still insist Magyarization policies had no effects on Slovaks? And bye the way those policies affected all ethnicities in Slovak towns, not just Slovaks. It affected Germans and Jews as well. Just to lesser extend.
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Old October 31st, 2011, 02:10 AM   #20

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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
It seems that the tension between Slovaks and Magyars will never end not even in modern days as many people gaining their political capital from this fact even these days.
It is not so much tension between Slovaks and Magyars as it is one of Magyars to Slovaks. Slovakia have no issues toward Hungary. We just want to be left at peace. We are not constantly messing in to the internal problems of our neighbours as Hungary does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
There were two different tensions in Austrian Empire.
1. Czechs-Austrians
2. Slovaks-Magyars (Hungarians) - not sure which name is correct.
Both tensions were a little different.
There was lot of ethnic tensions in AH. It was one large ethnic mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
I think that situation of Czechs in empire was better than situation of Slovaks.
The most important difference is that Czech lands were more important for Empire because were much richer, larger and even military power of Czech troops was higher.
It was mainly because Bohemia was one of the main administrative territories of Austria, it was in theory one of the kingdoms. While Slovakia did not even exist as a territory, administratively we were part of Hungary. And at the peak of assimilation policies, Hungarian politicians tried to insist that Slovaks do not exist as ethnicity at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
There is also a huge difference between mentality of these combinations. Czechs and Austrians are more conservative and settled but as Slovaks and Hungarians are much more temperament so many problems in Slovakia were solved by Hungarian sabre what was not so common here in Czech and what caused huge oposition in Slovak nation.
This I disagree. Slovaks and Hungarians are more conservative than Austrians and especially Czechs (which have reputation of troublemakers and revolutionaries at last since Hussite wars). As for "sabre" solutions, apart of National Uprising of 1848, there was no other larger military conflict between Slovaks and Hungarians. German-Czech and German-Hungarian relations were far more violent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
What is the most funny on the entire story is the fact that Hungary fought longtime for self determination inside of Austrian empire. They got their compromise in 1867 and it lead to creation of Austria-Hungary empire. Problem is that Hungary was not willing to give what they asked for. Self determination of Hungarians was good but self determination of nations lived in Hungary was totally unacceptable for Hungarians.
You just hit nail over its head. That is problem Slovaks (and most other neighbours) have with Hungarians. And probably Hungarians with themselves as well as it sort of schizophrenia. Result is that nation which dominated large parts of Central and Southern Europe for millennium think about itself and act as poor victim of history. Result is that they go from one national catastrophe to another. You can almost count on them to pick wrong side in conflict.

Until they accept responsibility for their own fate, until they acknowledge that what happened to them is to large part result of their own actions, they newer go to move forward. And we are struck with restless aggressive neighbour.
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