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Old October 23rd, 2012, 03:24 PM   #611

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The wading in blood speeches were warning not threats, the "if the volunteers ...continue" gets left off, And to make matters worst deValera wasn't the most emotionly stable person in then group at that time.
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Old October 23rd, 2012, 03:27 PM   #612

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The wading in blood speeches were warning not threats
Ah me eye, blatant threats of the worst description.
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Old October 23rd, 2012, 03:31 PM   #613

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Almost Certainly. He said so himself, and I have to say all study of the man indicates that he would have. It takes considerable deviousness to look at each situation for the benefits one can get for oneself. If Collins were that type of a man he never would have gone to London, especially since he knew he was being set up.

Sorry we can not say that with certainty to be fair we also can not say he wouldn't but Collins was a man of his times --as was Dev-- democracy had a very fragile hold on Europe at the time.

I think Ireland should be proud that in the 1920/30s unlike many 'new' European states of the time it went down the path of democracy--- but it was a 'near run thing' to quote a famous Meath man.

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The wading in blood speeches were warning not threats, the "if the volunteers ...continue" gets left off, And to make matters worst deValera wasn't the most emotionly stable person in then group at that time.
Were they 'warnings'? that just opinion ,--which might be or might not be correct.
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Old October 23rd, 2012, 03:51 PM   #614

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Sorry we can not say that with certainty to be fair we also can not say he wouldn't but Collins was a man of his times --as was Dev-- democracy had a very fragile hold on Europe at the time.
Not with certainty but I'm 99% sure that he would have. Not because of "democracy", but because that was the point of the exercise. To find out if the deal was agreeable to the Irish people. Collins pushing the treaty through wouldn't make any sense in a practical historical light anyway. He didn't even particularly like the treaty, or those that supported it. In spirit, he was with the Republicans.
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Old October 23rd, 2012, 03:53 PM   #615

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I think Ireland should be proud that in the 1920/30s unlike many 'new' European states of the time it went down the path of democracy--- but it was a 'near run thing' to quote a famous Meath man.
Nah, it was just Fianna Fáil dictatorship by the vote of the majority. Ireland has never been a democracy in the classical sense. Two right wing conservative parties, one of whom filled in for a short spell once every 10 years or so. No choice, and that's the way the people wanted it.
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Old October 23rd, 2012, 04:21 PM   #616

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Sorry we can not say that with certainty to be fair we also can not say he wouldn't but Collins was a man of his times --as was Dev-- democracy had a very fragile hold on Europe at the time.

I think Ireland should be proud that in the 1920/30s unlike many 'new' European states of the time it went down the path of democracy--- but it was a 'near run thing' to quote a famous Meath man.



Were they 'warnings'? that just opinion ,--which might be or might not be correct.
Not just in my opinion, it was the way the speeches were worded, the opposition, like they do today, twist the words around to suit their own agenda, and were the speeches smart, HELL NO, even Dermot Keogh (historian) suggest that deValera was having a nervous breakdown.
At Thurles this is what he was reported to have said; That if the volunteers of the future tried to complete the work the volunteers of the previous four years had been attempting,they ' would have to wade through Irish blood,through the blood of the soldiers of the Irish Government, and through, perhaps, the blood of some of members of the government in order to get to Irish freedom.' (source Dermot Keogh Ireland Nation State). Did some one in their right mind say those words, you be the judge?
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Old November 20th, 2012, 12:34 PM   #617

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Speech of Micheál Martin, TD at the annual Eamon de Valera Commemoration | Fianna Fáil
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Old November 20th, 2012, 02:12 PM   #618
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One word really; traitor. It is really sad when your biggest enemy isn't the one occupying you, but among your own people.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 08:32 AM   #619

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Its strange that history, it all boils down to a matter of opinion.
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Old December 27th, 2012, 10:31 AM   #620

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One word really; traitor. It is really sad when your biggest enemy isn't the one occupying you, but among your own people.
Well, all republicans sell out, it's in their nature. We were never occupied, you can't occupy yourself
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