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February 27th, 2012, 10:37 AM
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#341 | | Lecturer
Joined: Apr 2011 From: Tetovo, Macedonia Posts: 349 | Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB  But let us see his thesis - national identity changes. Yes, of course! But it changes slowly, under mighty hitosrical factors, and there are so many opposite examples. It changes only amongst the most undeveloped tribes or ethnic communities, not in the relatively conscious ethnics and nations. See Serbians - they have never changed. See Bulgarians, Greeks, Romanians (Wallachs), Russians. But, nobody knows why, Macedonians changed into Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians??! | Tell me, how many national identities did WW2 and its aftermath change? A whole lot. Identity can change very quickly after war or the break-up of states. It can also change slowly, of course. Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB Your identity is not contested - Bulgaria was the first state to recognize Republic of Maceodnia and tha state, who has given Macedonia more weapons than any other... For free, mostly. | When you recognized our independence, you were careful not to recognize that we are a separate people. Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB What is contested and will ever be so, it is the forging of history your Communist leaders during Tito period did and which you now repeat as parrots. | Our historians look at these old figures and see that they had both a Macedonian identity and a Bulgarian identity, and for political purposes they will emphasize the Macedonian one. Bulgarian historians will do the opposite and emphasize the Bulgarian one. Who is right and who is wrong? I think both of us are telling the truth and lying at the same time. We have a common history, which we don't like to recognize, but we will have a separate future, which you don't want to recognize. Quote:
Originally Posted by sturm I don't know what the greek interests with Macedonia are, and what there ambitions are but im interested in what the bulgarian interest/ambitions you speak of are? Macedonia becoming part of Bulgaria? That cannot happen today, and quite frankly many didn't wanted it to happen anyway, as i said above even Bulgaria itself, wanted for Macedonia to be independent.
What bulgarians would like most is for Bulgaria and Macedonia to be like Austria and Germany, same culture, same language, even similar if not the same ethnicity, but two different countries. | Before WW2, most Austrians openly recognized as Germans and there were attempts to unite the two states (for example, after WW1). After 1945, 'some events' changed this situation completely and now an Austrian will probably be very offended if you call him a German. That's a significant divide and it seems to be permanent, even though there is no actual hostility between the two at all. I don't know if this is what you have in mind.
That said, there is no problem in recognizing our cultural and linguistic similarities, just as long as the differences are also respected.
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February 27th, 2012, 11:03 AM
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#342 | | Historian
Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,542 |
Well, nation is not so dinamic category.. Not at all. Actually most nations remain constant. Who changed the nationality:
Serbia - no, Croatia - no, Poland - no, Chehia - no; Germany - no; Romania - no, Bulgaria - no; Turkey - no; Spain - no; Russia - no; Ukraina - no; Belgium - no; Japan - no... Who?
Macedonia and Austria.
May be Macedonia will follow Austrian way, I don`t know - future will show it.
We did not recognize, that we are separate people, friend, because we are not! At least historically.
So many Macedonians around me... My best friend`s wife`s family comes from Kavala.. My neighbors origin is from Skopie. Some of my friends families too. Now they are free - why they never denyed to be Bulgarians!?
When you recognize a country - you recognize the future. But if you recognize false history - you recognize a lie.
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Last edited by KGB; February 27th, 2012 at 11:10 AM.
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February 27th, 2012, 11:06 AM
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#343 | | Historian
Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,542 |
Who is right or who is not of the historians? My friend, colonel Drangov would do only one thing with a person, who tells him, that he is not Bulgarian ....
It is simple - let us leave the facts speaking and the truth will come  | | | |
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February 27th, 2012, 11:27 AM
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#345 | | Historian
Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,542 | | | | |
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February 27th, 2012, 11:33 AM
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#347 | | Historian
Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,542 | | | | |
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February 27th, 2012, 11:35 AM
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#348 | | Historian
Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,542 | | | | |
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February 27th, 2012, 12:43 PM
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#349 | | Lecturer
Joined: Feb 2009 From: Republc of Macedonia Posts: 491 |
Bravo kgb, you just proved that Bulgaria had a tendency between the two world wars to destroy the Macedonian identity in Macedonia, just as did the Serbs and Greeks.
I have shown and proven that since16 centuries there were people who felt themselves as Macedonians and spoke Macedonian language. Just for your heart (merak) another evidence
On April 6, 1690, Emperor Leopold I (1657-1705) issued a manifesto calling all peoples of Albania, Seрbia, Moesia, Bulgaria, Illyria, Macedonia to join the Austrian forces against the Ottomans. Several days later, on April 26th, 1690, Emperor Leopold I issued a letter where he took the Macedonian people under his wing.[3] 
Letter of protection from Leopold I
. …This is to inform you that two Macedonians, Marko Kraida born in Kosana (Kozhani) and Dimitri Georgi Popovic, born in Macedonian Salonika, have told us that the Macedonian people, with respect for our most righteous task, with devotion and zeal towards our service….we graciously accept them under our imperial and royal mercy and in any case and way the above mentioned Macedonian people, cordially recommending to each and all of our willing commanders not to attack the Macedonian people….Issued in Vienna, April 26th, 1690.
Source of the letter;
Representatives: defenders of the Macedonian people…. J. Radonic, Prilozi za istoriju Srba u Ungarskoj u XVI, XVII and XVIII veku. Knj. I, Matice srpske, nbr 25 and 26, Novi Sad 1908, p. 52-53.
So you like it or not, since 16th century exist people which considered themselves as Macedonians and spoke Macedonian language, not Bulgarian.
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February 27th, 2012, 11:55 PM
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#350 | | Suspended indefinitely
Joined: Aug 2010 From: Central Macedonia Posts: 17,763 |
People considered themselves Macedonians because they lived in Macedonia, either Aegean Macedonia or Northern Vardar Macedonia. That doesn't mean they were an ethnic group.
The Macedonian language you imply simply did not exist. It was a mix of Bulgarian and Serbian, at best.
In real Macedonian Greek, names like Alexander, Philip etc. actually mean something. In your pseudo-Macedonian language they don't mean anything. The etymology of those names (and all others actually) derives straight from Greek. The etymology is exclusively Greek.
Alexander does not mean protector of men in your "Macedonian" language.
Philip does not mean friend of horses in your Slavic language either.
Remember Strabo... His voice echoes from antiquity: Macedonia is Greece.
You cannot change that. You cannot re-write history.
By the way, most of the documents that speak of "Macedonian identity" from the 16th century are highly doubted and are probably fake.
Macedonia was a region/province back then, not a nation. You are distorting history once again.
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