avon

bilbil, Thess isn't going to be answering you.

bilbil

http://www.historum.com/european-his...tml#post935345

Shturm, you present part of the letter wrote by Goce, but when I invite you to discuss for him you ignore me. But OK. This the way how things should be handles, not with one piece, but with all letters wrote by Goce to Koljo (Nikola Rusinski-Maleshevski) on 12 pages.
http://www.kroraina.com/knigi/gd2/gd_3.html#152_1



My suggestion is to discuss at the end for the Goce’s letter you put on, if it is OK.


I take part from the few letters where he mention Macedonians and Bulgarians as separate (you have all letters to check it)

Надали има народ, който толкова много да е търпел от своите синове изроди, колкото македонския!...
Is there nation who suffered more from their own sons freaks (traitors) than Macedonian



---Тук е ковалнята на новините, но те служат само да се гадилкат патриотическите чувства на българските и македонски патриоти.---

Goce make clear distinction between Bulgarians and Macedonians patriots




---да ги подведете под клетва и ги возпитавате во духът да се жертвуват за снабдявание македонските комитети со оръжие. Отговори ми и на първото писмо.
Со поздрав Ахил---

1. Macedonian Committee, not Bulgarian
2. His nickname was Achile, not Kubrat khan or Telerig khan or Asparuh. Wait, maybe Achile was Bulgarian hehe
Мирмидони — Уикипеди�





Now lets see how Goce see Bulgarians:

Пресен пример ни дава позорното за народа убийство на Алеко. Това е то българско партизанство! А що мислиш ти — ще ли останат с заканванието си или ще докажат, че те са верни синове на демона

Goce see Bulgarians as sons of the demon??????



Писваш ми за телеграмите, пратени против началника; българските партизанства са такива, че човек отвращава се и от честните елементи, и от привържен[и]ци на правителството, и [от] самото правителство. Нека началника не се страхува от уволнение, защото не верват на депешите; разбойника знае, че е и другарите му са разбойници.

Goce see Bulgarians as bandits?????





Ако българите не беха глупави, немаше толкоз да тлеят в робство.
Чудни са хората, но още по-чудни се явяват тез господиновци, които с своето писмо, пълно с нелепости, отправено до Иванови, правят човек да се пръсне от яд. Сега вече вервам да са се помирили с положението си и са почнали редовно да ти предават дългите. Гледи колкото е възможно по-скоро да се изнасят. Защото не може човек да предвиди шарлатанството на хората……
С братска целувка
Ахил

If Bulgarians were not stupid, they will not stand so much under slavery (for Bulgarins, Goce write with they, not we,,,, тиа беха а не ние бехме)………… So Goce not consider himself as Bulgarian

.


Goce make clear distinction between Bulgarians and Macedonians. He fight for independent Macedonia, not for Macedonia as part of Bulgaria as verchovists did. Just one more Goce’s quote

Освобождението на Македония лежи в вътрешното въстание. Който мисли другояче да се освободи Македония, той и себе си лъже, и другите….. Требва тоя народ да се събуди от петвековния дълбок сън, който [е] направил македонеца доста дебел…….. ще се остават невинни македонки на произвола на скотските и жестоки страсти на диваците
Г. Делчев
Щип, 1895 г. октомврий 17
The liberation of Macedonia lies in internal uprising, who thinks otherwise is lying himself and others…. that nation (Macedonian-mine) need to wake up from five centuries dream, which make Macedonian man fat…….Macedonian women
http://www.kroraina.com/knigi/gd2/gd_7.html#203
.

Chrysoloras

I believe you might be pushing it a bit with a refence to the 17th century but certainly by the late 19th and early 20th century there were people who self identified as such though it wasn't always an identity that excluded Bulgarianness. Identities are fluid and not fixed and in the case of two cultural groups with many similarities (mutually inteligible language and same religion) the boundaries would have been hard to discern.

Rae, Heather (2002). State identities and the homogenisation of peoples. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 278.
"Despite the recent development of Macedonian identity, as Loring Danforth notes, it is no more or less artificial than any other identity. It merely has a more recent ethnogenesis – one that can therefore more easily be traced through the recent historical record."

Zielonka, Jan; Pravda, Alex (2001). Democratic consolidation in Eastern Europe. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 422.
"Unlike the Slovene and Croatian identities, which existed independently for a long period before the emergence of SFRY Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944. Again unlike Slovenia and Croatia, the very existence of a separate Macedonian identity was questioned—albeit to a different degree—by both the governments and the public of all the neighboring nations (Greece being the most intransigent)"

Kaufman, Stuart J. (2001). Modern hatreds: the symbolic politics of ethnic war. New York: Cornell University Press. pp. 193.
"The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. ... According to the new Macedonian mythology, modern Macedonians are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great's subjects. They trace their cultural identity to the ninth-century Saints Cyril and Methodius, who converted the Slavs to Christianity and invented the first Slavic alphabet, and whose disciples maintained a centre of Christian learning in western Macedonia. A more modern national hero is Gotse Delchev, leader of the turn-of-the-century Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which was actually a largely pro-Bulgarian organization but is claimed as the founding Macedonian national movement."

Titchener, Frances B.; Moorton, Richard F. (1999). The eye expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman antiquity. Berkeley: University of California Press. pp. 259.
"On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. ... The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one."

Sperling, James; Kay, Sean; Papacosma, S. Victor (2003). Limiting institutions?: the challenge of Eurasian security governance. Manchester, UK: Manchester University Press. pp. 57.
"Macedonian nationalism Is a new phenomenon. In the early twentieth century, there was no separate Slavic Macedonian identity"

bilbil

Have you read this thread from the beginning? Hmmmmm

My grandpa was born 1908. I know my roots by my father side since 1847, by my mother side few decades sooner and we all were and are Macedonians. So stop with Tito’s creation, please. That theory for Macedonians falls on very first check. It's true that Macedonians than hadn't state, but are Jews existed before creation of Israel?




http://www.historum.com/european-his...tml#post949926


http://www.historum.com/european-his...tml#post949305


http://www.historum.com/european-his...ml#post1007209 pictures

Chrys, I already start conversation for Goce Delchev, so please stay on same frequency

Chrysoloras

By all means continue. I didn't want to spoil your exposition with anything as crude as the academic consensus.

Alaric

Patently false. Gjorgji Pulevski, Krste Misirkov, and Dimitrija Čupovski (among many others) all expounded upon the idea of a separate Macedonian identity before 1945. You could argue how well-received their ideas were, but to say no such ideas existed is ludicrous.

Krystian

The ideas of a few people are not like the self-identification of an entire population. Among the million or so people who lived in the region of today's FYROM before 1945 there was no separate national "Macedonian" identity in the sense you have today. It was a regional identity of the Bulgarian (majority), Serbian or Greek nationalities, just as "Transylvanian" can be the identity of a Hungarian, German or Romanian person from that region. That's what Macedonia was for 2 thousands years - a region in the Balkans, shared by a number of nations, none of whom was a separate "Macedonian" nation. Only after 1945 was this region turned into a separate nation and the people there forced to abandon their centuries-old national allegiances and embrace the new one (with little success at first, much greater success in the next few generations who grew under the state propaganda). Of course, to have a separate nationality you need a separate nation history. So where do you get one? From your neighbors of course - Alexander from the greeks, Samuil, Goce and many others from the bulgarians etc.

sturm

Bilbil i have already caught you in your attempt to present a cut-off document in order to hide a text that you didn't want us to see.
You deliberately falsified a document! I have nothing else to discuss with you.

bilbil

Only two things are infinity, one is cosmos and other human stupidity (Еinstain). My father is born 1935, my grandpa was born 1908, they live on territory on R. of Macedonia or as you call it in derogative ,FYROM and they know themselves as Macedonians. So, you are not from this territory and you better how Macedonians self determine themselves. BRE BRE,


http://www.historum.com/european-his...tml#post948217

In East Roman Empire live Romans and have no nationalities, live only Romans.



Shturm where you found me to lie? Strange way of discussion, when I start discussion for middle age you discuss for ancient, when I discuss for modern period you discuss for middle age. Why you look for cure for Bulgariann low value complex with Macedonians... but OK
You post this
http://www.historum.com/european-his...tml#post949977

and this one
Податотека:Samuil-skilitsa-trud.jpg - Википедија


I'll give one more,



As I see wrote Voulgar..or as you read Boulgar... Am I right?

sturm

There are many dictionaries on the internet, enter in one, look how Bulgaria/bulgarian is written on greek, then come prepared for discussion.

I have caught you in a lie, and of course you disapeared after that, you stopped writting for a while, then i thought, well done, Bilbil has some dignity, some honor, when he is caught in a lie he agrees, i was wrong that you will stop. Your just ignorant.

As for what is written above, the greeks in the forum can translate, let them tell us, is it written bulgarian or macedonia?

I know a guy and i showed you in a documentary, who is older then you, and says his father and grandfather were born in today Macedonia, but studied bulgarian language in school, and called themself bulgarian.
Who should i trust?
What you speak of, isn't valid historical proof. Why is it so hard to understand?