Macedonians in the 19th cen; problems and who like to play Kazachok in that period - Page 43 - Historum

Yaunâ · May 6th, 2012, 03:01 PM

^^ I think that you must know that there weren't such tribes as Dacians, Thracians and Macedonians in the 12th century. But there were the Romaioi, the Bulgarians, the Vlachs, etc. Late Byzantine scholars used archaisms in order to describe ethnic groups or regional groups, even if they were the same people. For example a Byzantine could refer to a "Mysian", a Macedonian and a Cypriot by using their regional names even if they were the same (Romans).

**Midas** · May 6th, 2012, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilbil

Peter Delyan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Deljan was the leader of the local Bulgarian uprising against the Byzantine rule started in Pomoravlje and after was liberated Belgrade too (today in Serbia), where he was proclaimed for Tsar of Bulgaria, as Samoil`s grandson. After that he took Niš and Skopje. (So far no B of today Bulgaria)

Then he eliminating another potential leader in the person of one Tihomir, who had led a rebellion in the region of Durazzo. (Durres – today in Albania… so two camps of Bulgarian rebels were formed…….

)
FileeljanTihomirAndBulgarians.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...041%29.svg.png
So Midas, according you and this picture, on the territory of today R. Macedonia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro lived today Bulgarians. Bravo.

Please, go to my post 312 on page 32 and read how Simeon Lehaci describe population of Serbia and Bosnia. Are they same as today Bulgarians?

---

Constantine Bodin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is one more king of Bulgaria, “same with today Bulgarians”. He was proclaimed as "Emperor of the Bulgarians" and gave him the name 'Peter III' . He was from Duklja, today Montenegro. (bre, bre, all same with today Bulgarians )

---

Lets say you have right, see yourself how Comnena describe population on the Balkan in 12th cen. :

This Haemus is a very long mountain range running along a line parallel to Mount Rhodope. The range begins at the Euxine sea, leaves the cataracts a little on one side and continues right into Illyria; there it is cut through by the Adriatic Sea, I fancy, and emerges again in the opposite continent and finishes right away in the Hercynian forests. On either side of its slopes dwell many very wealthy tribes, the Dacians and the Thracians on the northern side, and on the southern, more Thracians and the Macedonians. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...-Alexiad00.asp

Where the mountain Haemus is?
[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Toni/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]Haemus_Mons

File:Balkangebirge Balkan topo de.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We already have the map of the themes in Byzantine above. So, Are those Macedonians in the 12th, which lived in the theme Macedonia same with today Macedonians ? Midas, if for you Bulgarians from 12th are same with today Bulgarians, then …

bilbil...Bring your translator. Period!

My main point was that the B and V Bulgaria is nonsense. Who the Bulgarians are today and in the 12th century is not my business anymore. Bulgaria and Βουλγαρία in Greek is exactly the same thing no matter how we pronounce B.

bilbil · May 10th, 2012, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaunâ

^^ I think that you must know that there weren't such tribes as Dacians, Thracians and Macedonians in the 12th century. But there were the Romaioi, the Bulgarians, the Vlachs, etc. Late Byzantine scholars used archaisms in order to describe ethnic groups or regional groups, even if they were the same people. For example a Byzantine could refer to a "Mysian", a Macedonian and a Cypriot by using their regional names even if they were the same (Romans).

Yauna, these are links for Ana Comnena and Psell. Can you show us where they address to the Macedonians, Bulgarians, Thracians and Dachians on a different way then as to residents of the relevant themes in Byzantium? They address to all of them on the same way.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...Alexiad00.html
Medieval Sourcebook: Michael Psellus: Chronographia: Book VI
Press Ctrl+F then put the word Macedonian and start presses enter. Then repeat that with word Bulgarian (4). There is no difference in the way they address to them. They address to them as to the residents of the appropriate theme.

So one more time, Are those Macedonians in the 12th, which lived in the theme Macedonia same with today Macedonians ?

Yauna, I want to be sure that we are on same frequency. Here has list of all Bulgarian kings (Khans) from the first and second Bulgarian empire.

List_of_Bulgarian_monarchs

I just want to distinguish between those kings (Khans) and Slavic kings of theme Bulgaria as part of Byzantium, so called Cometopuli dynasty (Komiti).
It is really difficult to discuss with the mixing of history (ancient, medieval and modern) and I suggest for ancient and medieval history to discuss on separate threads, of course if you are agree too

Ficino · May 10th, 2012, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilbil

Yauna, these are links for Ana Comnena and Psell. Can you show us where they address to the Macedonians, Bulgarians, Thracians and Dachians on a different way then as to residents of the relevant themes in Byzantium? They address to all of them on the same way.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...Alexiad00.html
Medieval Sourcebook: Michael Psellus: Chronographia: Book VI
Press Ctrl+F then put the word Macedonian and start presses enter. Then repeat that with word Bulgarian (4). There is no difference in the way they address to them. They address to them as to the residents of the appropriate theme.

So one more time, Are those Macedonians in the 12th, which lived in the theme Macedonia same with today Macedonians ?

Yauna, I want to be sure that we are on same frequency. Here has list of all Bulgarian kings (Khans) from the first and second Bulgarian empire.
List of Bulgarian monarchs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I just want to distinguish between those kings (Khans) and Slavic kings of theme Bulgaria as part of Byzantium, so called Cometopuli dynasty (Komiti).
It is really difficult to discuss with the mixing of history (ancient, medieval and modern) and I suggest for ancient and medieval history to discuss on separate threads, of course if you are agree too

You are fighting for a lost cause, Yaunâ tried to explain you the situation. In those times lived Byzantine Greeks, Slavs, Bulgars (not Bulgarians), Vlachs etc. You are as Slavs and as Bulgars etc. as the Bulgarians from Bulgaria, you form the same ethnic group, the rest is just bulls**t.

Ficino · May 10th, 2012, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilbil

Yauna, these are links for Ana Comnena and Psell. Can you show us where they address to the Macedonians, Bulgarians, Thracians and Dachians on a different way then as to residents of the relevant themes in Byzantium? They address to all of them on the same way.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...Alexiad00.html
Medieval Sourcebook: Michael Psellus: Chronographia: Book VI
Press Ctrl+F then put the word Macedonian and start presses enter. Then repeat that with word Bulgarian (4). There is no difference in the way they address to them. They address to them as to the residents of the appropriate theme.

So one more time, Are those Macedonians in the 12th, which lived in the theme Macedonia same with today Macedonians ?

Yauna, I want to be sure that we are on same frequency. Here has list of all Bulgarian kings (Khans) from the first and second Bulgarian empire.
List of Bulgarian monarchs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I just want to distinguish between those kings (Khans) and Slavic kings of theme Bulgaria as part of Byzantium, so called Cometopuli dynasty (Komiti).
It is really difficult to discuss with the mixing of history (ancient, medieval and modern) and I suggest for ancient and medieval history to discuss on separate threads, of course if you are agree too

You are fighting for a lost cause, Yaunâ tried to explain you the situation. In those times lived Byzantine Greeks, Slavs, Bulgars (not Bulgarians), Vlachs etc. You are as Slavs and as Bulgars etc. as the Bulgarians from Bulgaria, you form the same ethnic group, the rest is just bulls**t. The first Bulgarian Empire was Bulgaro-Slav, the second was Vlacho-Slav (Bulgars were already assimilated) Medieval Sourcebook: Villehardouin: Memoirs or Chronicle of The Fourth Crusade and The Conquest of Constantinople

Yaunâ · May 10th, 2012, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilbil

Yauna, these are links for Ana Comnena and Psell. Can you show us where they address to the Macedonians, Bulgarians, Thracians and Dachians on a different way then as to residents of the relevant themes in Byzantium? They address to all of them on the same way.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...Alexiad00.html
Medieval Sourcebook: Michael Psellus: Chronographia: Book VI
Press Ctrl+F then put the word Macedonian and start presses enter. Then repeat that with word Bulgarian (4). There is no difference in the way they address to them. They address to them as to the residents of the appropriate theme.

So one more time, Are those Macedonians in the 12th, which lived in the theme Macedonia same with today Macedonians ?

To which ethnic group did these Macedonians belong in the 12 century?

This is from Alexiad. It is clear that t here's a referance to these groups in a regional sence.

Bryennius himself held the centre of the phalanx, consisting of Macedonians and Thracians, and the picked men of the whole nobility. All the Thessalians were on horseback [or they were all mounted on Thessalian horses]

**sturm** · May 10th, 2012, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ficino

You are fighting for a lost cause, Yaunâ tried to explain you the situation. In those times lived Byzantine Greeks, Slavs, Bulgars (not Bulgarians), Vlachs etc. You are as Slavs and as Bulgars etc. as the Bulgarians from Bulgaria, you form the same ethnic group, the rest is just bulls**t. The first Bulgarian Empire was Bulgaro-Slav, the second was Vlacho-Slav (Bulgars were already assimilated) Medieval Sourcebook: Villehardouin: Memoirs or Chronicle of The Fourth Crusade and The Conquest of Constantinople

The vlachs and romanians are also not the same.

Ficino · May 11th, 2012, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sturm

The vlachs and romanians are also not the same.

I was talking about Vlachs, but btw which is the difference?
If you mean by Romanians the inhabitants of Romania, yes, it is a difference, if you mean ethnicity, they mean the same thing.

**sturm** · May 11th, 2012, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ficino

I was talking about Vlachs, but btw which is the difference?
If you mean by Romanians the inhabitants of Romania, yes, it is a difference, if you mean ethnicity, they mean the same thing.

So vlach and romanian are the same ethnicity but bulgarian and bulgars are not?
Bulgar, proto-bulgar, volga-bulgar, those are all newer terms, spoken by the historians, bulgarians were refered to as bulgarians in the middleages and in modern time. With few exceptions, in some greek texts bulgarians are called "moesians", sometimes "skythians", but this is the archaisms for which Yaunâ already spoke.

Ficino · May 11th, 2012, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sturm

So vlach and romanian are the same ethnicity but bulgarian and bulgars are not?
Bulgar, proto-bulgar, volga-bulgar, those are all newer terms, spoken by the historians, bulgarians were refered to as bulgarians in the middleages and in modern time. With few exceptions, in some greek texts bulgarians are called "moesians", sometimes "skythians", but this is the archaisms for which Yaunâ already spoke.

The Bulgars were a non-Slavic people, "Bulgarians" refers to the main population of the state the Bulgars established, a population having principally a Slavic ethnic and cultural component. I never denied that the Bulgarians are the inheritors of the Bulgar culture and civilization, or that the Bulgars represent a part of their ancestors.