Braveheart=William Wallace - Page 4 - Historum

Paulinus · September 13th, 2011, 09:53 AM

Well perhaps re his supposedly intimidating character but certainly not in his language. In reality he spoke Anglo-Norman French yet according to the film he was unable to understand the French spoken by his wife. As to Richard's suggestion re Wallace's victory being a precursor to greater individual freedom in Scotland an opposite thesis could be presented. It was Edward I who institutionalised parliament in England, probably so the weight of popular opinion could be used to countervale that of the nobility. I'm not aware that an equivalent forum was open to the Scottish populus under the barons (perhaps others can correct this?) and as far as I can tell the Bruce and his peers were not fighting for the common man but for their noble's privileges. Of course Edward I was a tyrant and no peacenik like most of the monarch's of his era, but his attempt to deploy parliament as a countervaling tool to gain more personal power laid the foundations for real liberties down the line.

redFusilier · September 13th, 2011, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulinus

Well perhaps re his supposedly intimidating character but certainly not in his language. In reality he spoke Anglo-Norman French yet according to the film he was unable to understand the French spoken by his wife. As to Richard's suggestion re Wallace's victory being a precursor to greater individual freedom in Scotland an opposite thesis could be presented. It was Edward I who institutionalised parliament in England, probably so the weight of popular opinion could be used to countervale that of the nobility. I'm not aware that an equivalent forum was open to the Scottish populus under the barons (perhaps others can correct this?) and as far as I can tell the Bruce and his peers were not fighting for the common man but for their noble's privileges. Of course Edward I was a tyrant and no peacenik like most of the monarch's of his era, but his attempt to deploy parliament as a countervaling tool to gain more personal power laid the foundations for real liberties down the line.

Edward was a very intelligent man, he also issued a new, improved version of the Magna carta which is still in effect today. Some credit for this has to be given to Simon de Montfort as well, who called the first directly elected parliament. Edward I was using the basis of de Montfort's parliament and the Provisions of oxford when he reformed England's institutions

**Chookie** · September 13th, 2011, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Stanbery

To answer that question and illustrate a profound thought of understanding, we need look no farther than how the Scottish Kings followed the Papal decree concerning the Templars.

So, Scotland was not as harsh on the outlawed groups as some of the other European nations were. Templars and Lollards alike might have at least, a slim hope of a lesser persecution in Scotland than in England

That is entirely due to the fact that the Brus had been excommunicated after the murder of the Red Comyn. The King be excommunicate meant that, effectively, the whole realm was on the Papal ignore list. This being the case, the Bull which dissolved the Templars never reached Scotland...

Nothing very tolerant there....

**DreamWeaver** · September 13th, 2011, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Stanbery

To answer that question and illustrate a profound thought of understanding, we need look no farther than how the Scottish Kings followed the Papal decree concerning the Templars.

So, Scotland was not as harsh on the outlawed groups as some of the other European nations were. Templars and Lollards alike might have at least, a slim hope of a lesser persecution in Scotland than in England.

I think of the tiny, helpless Lollards, and then I think back to the tale that was told about Robert the Bruce, and his experience in the cave on Rathlin Island.

That will have more to do with Scottish Papal relations than any inbuilt tolerance in society.

Amazon.com: The Formation of a Persecuting Society: Authority and Deviance in Western Europe 950-1250 (9781405129640): R. I. Moore: Books

A very interesting book that has had a fair old impact.

**Belloc** · September 13th, 2011, 03:08 PM

Hey Paulinus, the French princess wasn't Edward's wife, but that of his son. Of course at the time the film takes place, she was probably only three years old in real history.

Paulinus · September 14th, 2011, 01:51 AM

Too true - my memory let me down - but if I now remember correctly in the film Walace sire's the future Edward III even though in reality he died 7 years before Edward III was born. Its the license taken with real history to spin a simplistic Wallace/Bruce are good and Edward/English are evil narrative that give it a bad rap despite its other strengths.

**DreamWeaver** · September 14th, 2011, 05:03 AM

convenient dichotomies are never that convenient

**Vladd** · September 14th, 2011, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulinus

Its the license taken with real history to spin a simplistic Wallace/Bruce are good and Edward/English are evil narrative that give it a bad rap despite its other strengths.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good rabble rousing story with a side order of English bashing.