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Old November 21st, 2011, 09:19 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by LuciusCorneliusSulla View Post
Sostratus built the world's largest lighthouse using only mirrors and fire!
that is pretty awesome in my book
It's cool in mine to but the story of Archimedes is to me much like the film 300 but with epic weapons that we still can't duplicate.
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Old November 21st, 2011, 10:31 PM   #22

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Originally Posted by CIowa View Post
Goodness no.

The Greeks "civilized" themselves, the Romans stole their knowledge, the Arabs stole it from the Romans, and the Crusaders stole it from the Arabs.
There's a very simplist aproach!
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Old November 21st, 2011, 10:36 PM   #23

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The Phoenicians spread Middle-Eastern civilization through the Western Mediterranean at least 3,000 years ago. The Berbers were one of the recipient peoples. Islam was a new cultural font. The Arabs had synthesised Hellenistic and Persian culture by the time of their arrival in NW Africa. The ethnic and religious mix of Arabs and Berbers created a new Islamic people, the Moors. Arabs conquered Spain with Berber and Spanish (Visigothic) assistance. 9th Century Cordova was the marvel of Western Europe as Constantinople (European, still civilised and soon to revive as a major power again) was for Eastern Europe.

The Moorish Almohad and Almoravid dynasties of South-East Spain and North-West Africa took power centuries later. The European dark age (maybe) was over and North West Europe had gone on the crusade. The Almoravids despised the pleasure loving (huge generalisation) Muslims of Spain. Although the Moors ruled from Seville their African concerns were paramount (the challengers to the Almohads were other Moors in Africa).
Did the Moors civilize or transmit knowledge to the Europeans. Other than light cavalry tactics - no.
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Old November 21st, 2011, 11:04 PM   #24

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Originally Posted by BlackEurope600 View Post
it is commonly said among black hebrew isralites/black supremacy/black nationalist etc. etc.

that the Ancient Moors civilized Europe when they came, because Europe was still in the dark ages, and were barbaric,savage, illiterate.. and then the Moors came and civilized the Europeans and also enlightened them in the many subjects like math, science, philosophy etc. etc.

It is the common opinion of sensible people that those people (black supremacists etc.) are (potentially dangerous) clowns.

The Greeks "civilized" themselves, the Romans stole their knowledge, the Arabs stole it from the Romans, and the Crusaders stole it from the Arabs.
They did not "steal" it. The Greeks did not have property rights on their knowledge I was told.
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Old November 22nd, 2011, 04:41 AM   #25

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Originally Posted by clement View Post

They did not "steal" it. The Greeks did not have property rights on their knowledge I was told.

Indeed it was one of the great failings of Hellenistic culture to adequately legislate intellectual property rights across the Mediterranena. The Fools!
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Old November 22nd, 2011, 04:51 AM   #26

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The Moors/Arabs introduced many new things in Europe during their conquests.
For example, during the Arab domination of Sicily(X-XI centuries), they introduced citrus fruits,they improved the irrigation and coltivation system and had excellent mathematicians and cartographers ; plus the didn't force Sicilian to become Muslims.
But the Europeans were not barbarians at all!
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Old November 22nd, 2011, 05:11 AM   #27

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I vaguely understand that a lot of the Socratic philosophy was transferred to Europe via Arabian scholars/The Moors. Al Biruni is a great example of the Golden Age of Islamic thinking and Moorish Spain was certainly quite an enlightened society. It was one of the few places where Muslims, Christians and Jews all lived together without murdering each other.

I direct the venerable historumites to yet another In Our Time Podcast which covers the Subject of Moorish Spain in excellent detail:

(right click save as to download)

BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - In Our Time, Muslim Spain

Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss Muslim Spain. In 711 a small army of North African Berbers invaded Spain and established an Iberian Islamic culture that would last for over 700 years.

Click the image to open in full size.

Despite periods of infighting and persecution, Muslim Spain was a land where Muslims, Jews and Christians co-existed in relative peace and harmony. Its capital, Cordoba, although not unique amongst Spanish cities, became the centre and focus for generations of revered and respected philosophers, physicians and scholars. By the 10th century Cordoba was one of the largest cities in the world. But what some historians refer to as Cordoba’s Golden Age came to an end in the 11th century, when the society was destabilised by new threats from Africa to the South and Christendom to the North.
However, it was not until 1492, when Granada fell to the Catholic monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella, that Islamic Spain was well and truly over.In that same year the Jews were expelled from its shores and Christopher Columbus set sail to lead Spanish Christian expansionism into the new world.
But how did Muslims, Jews and Christians interact in practice? Was this period of apparent tolerance underpinned by a respect for each other’s sacred texts? What led to the eventual collapse of Cordoba and Islamic Spain? And are we guilty of over-romanticising this so-called golden age of co-existence?
With Tim Winter, a convert to Islam and lecturer in Islamic Studies at the Faculty of Divinity at Cambridge University; Martin Palmer, Anglican lay preacher and theologian and author of The Sacred History of Britain, Mehri Niknam, Executive Director of the Maimonides Foundation, a joint Jewish-Muslim Interfaith Foundation in London.
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Old November 22nd, 2011, 08:03 AM   #28
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"Enlightenment" is a matter of accretion, and evolution. It isn't a matter of being pressed in a mold.
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