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Old December 11th, 2012, 06:38 AM   #331
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Yes, absolutely. I didn't say that English views are any less relevant. What I meant, was that were I to stand in an English town centre asking people's views on the Union, then I'd probably get a whole lot more "Don't know"s than if I did the same in NI.
I think the vast majority of the people of England know whether they want England in the Union or not.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 06:51 AM   #332
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I think the vast majority of the people of England know whether they want England in the Union or not.
thats not what was said.

in NI, everyone has a hard opinion whether yea or nay, whereas in England the question isn't something that comes up much, therefore people are much less likely to have even considered it, much less come to a firm view.

when the referendum in Scotland happens - regardless of the result - i imagine that people in England will become much more interested in the nature/future of the unions that make up Britain and the UK, and they will come to their own views about how and whether they should continue - but until the issue becomes 'live', its rather odd to believe people will have seriously considered it.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:06 PM   #333

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Originally Posted by Dried Fruit View Post
thats not what was said.

in NI, everyone has a hard opinion whether yea or nay, whereas in England the question isn't something that comes up much, therefore people are much less likely to have even considered it, much less come to a firm view.

when the referendum in Scotland happens - regardless of the result - i imagine that people in England will become much more interested in the nature/future of the unions that make up Britain and the UK, and they will come to their own views about how and whether they should continue - but until the issue becomes 'live', its rather odd to believe people will have seriously considered it.
Whatever happens in 2014 with the referendum is to do with what the people will think about wanting to be part of a British union. I am glad that we have been now allowed to be given the choice.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 02:22 AM   #334

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Interesting article in the Telegraph today suggesting that those of us who thought that there is an inevitable demographic shift toward the end of the Union have got it wrong. The proportion of Catholics is indeed coming close to that of Protestants. 'The key point, however, is that being a Catholic no longer dictates your political allegiance. Asked to select one or more identities, 48 pc of NI's inhabitants chose British, 29 pc Northern Irish, and only 28 pc Irish...Last year, a survey showed that, while only 4 pc of Protestants want a united Ireland, more than half of Catholics prefer to stay in the UK' The failure of the Celtic Tiger model seems to be a factor in this. It looks as if we may see the development of a Northern Irish identity which can't be defined in terms of the old sectarian oppositions.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 03:50 AM   #335

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But this has often been the case. Before, many Northern Irish didn't want to be a part of a third world country. Now they don't want to be a part of a failing one. They clearly know where they are better off, and loyalty is trumped by who can better line my pocket.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 04:57 AM   #336
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But this has often been the case. Before, many Northern Irish didn't want to be a part of a third world country. Now they don't want to be a part of a failing one. They clearly know where they are better off, and loyalty is trumped by who can better line my pocket.
its not remotely scientific, but if you go onto some of the more mainstream Irish political forums where NI Catholics/Nationalists hang out, you'll often note that the greatest problem many of them have with the reality of unification is the loss of the NHS, and the fear of being run by a political system where FF and FG are the big political parties - many NI Catholics may not like 'da brits' much, but the idea of being run by Dublin doesn't appeal much either...

saying that, i imagine that the events of the last week or so haven't done a collective 'Northern Ireland Identity' any good.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 05:11 AM   #337
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when the referendum in Scotland happens - regardless of the result - i imagine that people in England will become much more interested in the nature/future of the unions that make up Britain and the UK, and they will come to their own views about how and whether they should continue - but until the issue becomes 'live', its rather odd to believe people will have seriously considered it.
Polls have already shown that the English are more anti-Union than the Scots.

Polls have shown that the English are more in favour of Scottish independence than the Scots are. I suppose the fact that the Scots are a drain on the economy plays a big part in this.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 05:37 AM   #338

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Let's all stick to discussing Northern Ireland, shall we? If this thread strays into contemporary politics any more, it will be locked.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 07:24 PM   #339

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But this has often been the case. Before, many Northern Irish didn't want to be a part of a third world country. Now they don't want to be a part of a failing one. They clearly know where they are better off, and loyalty is trumped by who can better line my pocket.

This is pretty much it exactly. I don't know about down here in the Republic but people I know up North more and more are seeing Ireland's government for what it is; sleazy corrupt old men in the pockets of the banks and the Catholic Church. Less so the latter now, admittedly, but Rome still has an unwarranted amount of power in the Republic. Westminster is an infinitely preferable choice to Leinster House - Hell, I'd advocate a return of the entire island to the Union at this rate.

More and more I've begun to see Sinn Féin and the dissident Republicans (the Continuity IRA and the Real IRA) as living in a bygone era; I think most Northern Irish Catholics (those that I know, anyway) are happy to be away from the pathetically backwards Republican government and infrastructure. The colour of the flag doesn't really matter in this day and age; Anglo-Irish hostility was a product of Catholic/Protestant sectarianism which, while still prevalent in some circles, is quickly fading away into an ugly memory.

I think the rule of thumb is, any die-hard Republicans who still cling to the unification of Ireland as a viable option sadly need to grow up and open up a newspaper. The world has moved on from our petty squabbles over land and identity.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 07:40 AM   #340

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This is a history forum for the discussion of history. You agree with a poster who thinks the Republic of Ireland was a third world country but is now just a failed state! That is just ill-informed cheap propaganda which does not say much for your education although, on the other hand, it just might be saying quite a lot.
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... I don't know about down here in the Republic but people I know up North more and more are seeing Ireland's government for what it is;...
If you are from the Republic I would have thought you would be better informed about how we down here see things.
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... sleazy corrupt old men in the pockets of the banks and the Catholic Church. Less so the latter now, admittedly, but Rome still has an unwarranted amount of power in the Republic.
There is corruption in all governments. You should know that if you are well read in history and equally well read in current affairs. I can think of a few governments that have been, and continue to be, guilty of far worse corrupt practices than slack regulation of banks or swindling expenses.
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... Westminster is an infinitely preferable choice to Leinster House - Hell, I'd advocate a return of the entire island to the Union at this rate.
That is just political opinion based upon personal preference. Somehow, I'm not surprised at your choice!
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... More and more I've begun to see Sinn Féin and the dissident Republicans (the Continuity IRA and the Real IRA) as living in a bygone era;
You lump Sinn Féin with the dissident IRA! Sinn Féin share power in the north of Ireland and are passionate promoters of the peace accord. They are also active in southern politics keeping the government down here honest. The dissident IRA are trying to plunge the north back into the dark days of the past. In any case, haven't you heard of the Good Friday Agreement? 75% of voters in the north agreed to it and 95% of voters in the Republic. Recent events in Northern Ireland show that some people up there are still living in the past and want to return to it. In the south we gave up our territorial claim to the north and overwhelmingly voted for the Good Friday Agreement. That agreement firmly placed the future of the north in the hands of the people of the north as expressed through the ballot box.
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... I think most Northern Irish Catholics (those that I know, anyway) are happy to be away from the pathetically backwards Republican government and infrastructure.
Another clever statement! Your turn of phrase is telling and says much more about you than it does about the south. The south's infrastructure is better than the north's - the North tries to copy everything good that we do! As to our government, well, republican government is, in my view, the best form of government. The kind of government they had in the north was certainly not something to be proud of or emulate, and although Britain's liberal parliamentary democracy is to be commended, they are still trying to improve it by reform of the Lords and recently creating an independent judiciary or supreme court.
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...The colour of the flag doesn't really matter in this day and age; Anglo-Irish hostility was a product of Catholic/Protestant sectarianism which, while still prevalent in some circles, is quickly fading away into an ugly memory.
Not in the north, evidently! And it was not the Irish who brought religious sectarianism into Irish history and politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle of Serenity Valley View Post
... any die-hard Republicans who still cling to the unification of Ireland as a viable option sadly need to grow up and open up a newspaper. The world has moved on from our petty squabbles over land and identity.
Like I said previously, haven't you heard of the Good Friday Agreement?

Now. I don't normally engage in current affairs on this forum, preferring to discuss history. Have you anything to say about the history of 'Glorious' Northern Ireland?
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