Siberian Man

Truly? Havel was alike Gorbatchev? Oh, it's very very very badly!

Siberian Man

Judas Iskariot was the quite good guy. He killed nobody. He has only betrayed Jesus Christ for 30 silver coins. But we hate him more strongly, than bloody emperors Tiberius, Caligula & Neron.
Gorbachev too has killed nobody. He only has betrayed...

Lors

Russians didn't send any condolences concerning Vaclav Havel demise but they did send concerning Kim Jong-il demise. Quite embarrassing I presume.

arras

Yes, in many ways they are similar. He betrayed people who believed in him. He was full of nice large words and ideas but he was speaking one and doing different. Did not kept promises he gave to public. He allowed ex-communists and various thieves to take over country while making promises of fairness, honour and rule of law to people all the while country was robbed clean. Hell he was even elected in to office of president by communists, so what a surprise. He destroyed whole industrial sectors and opened gates of prisons to criminals who flooded the country. He created around himself mafia like clan of people and whole families who then took control over various parts of economy, media, business, institutions. This clan became to be know as "hrad" ("the castle" -seat of Czechoslovak president in Prague). They still control large part of Czech media as much as I know, for example Czech TV. Later similar concurring gang of people and families was created around Vaclav Klaus, another key protagonist of "revolution" (in reality controlled coup) and current Czech president. Havel and Claus and people around them became two main opponents in Bohemian business and politics. As much as I know still are. There were and are whole political parties which are know to have backing of either Havel and his people or Claus and his people.

Does that sound familiar?

And I am even not going to speak about what Havel seems to have been doing before revolution during communism. Other people from anticommunist movement who knew Havel back then come with stories which are very different from those you read in media. But that is real sink-holle and you can not be sure what is truth and what is jelaousy.

Havel himself and people around him made sure all communistic secret service documents about him disappeared.

And than there is his alcoholism, which was public secret. During revolution his alcoholic parties were famous for people who could get there and became friends with Havel and Co then often got important positions in state. In other words you could drink yourself in to power strait from the street. And such stories I have from people who personally knew such people. Petty thieves, drunkards and vagabonds became security ministers (those who controlled for example those secret services records which then disappeared so miraculously ...and then kept emerging from nowhere when somebody became uncomfortable).

And so on...

There is lot of information you can find also on internet but all of it is in Czech or Slovak. Non of it was translated in to English, foreign media are not interested in such information as it would not fit with their carefully painted image of great hero of anticommunist revolution and of victory of "democracy" over "communism".

In fact Havel is in large part product of media. And not just outside of Czechoslovakia. As I sad, before 1989 he was completely obscure figure. Suddenly he was out president and greatest thinker of the world. And people were looking at him and were asking, who is he? He was created in similar fashion like Hollywood "stars" are created. And he served similar purpose, earn people in background money. Lot of money.

Siberian Man

If it so and it is not necessary to be sorry about his death. And I that thought that he has brought to Czechs and Slovaks a lot of advantage! You open to me eyes, the sir.

Siberian Man

Kim Chen Ir was the ruler of friendly country (for Russia).

Siberian Man

You the Chechen? In that case you have no right to learn us of democracy. Your Ahmad Kadirov is a modern dictator. Besides, you live at the expense of money which to you are given by Russian. In the bible it is told: don't bite a hand which feeds you.

arras

Well on one popular alternative Slovak site 3 articles about his death were published. 2 favourite to him, one critical. When you look under for readers commentaries you see things like this (there are both Slovak and Czech comments):

"Slovakia waited 20 years for this satisfaction"

"Finally this pig went to answer for his nastiness"

"Today is my luckiest day, when this czech humanitary-bombardier died, for whom I was ashamed for dozens of years.. " (writer was Czech)

"He died prematurely, he was not brought to justice for treason jet."

Only favourite comment I found under those articles is:
"It is sad that you write like this [he mean other posters who are critical], but you do not recognise one thing, truth will be somewhere in the middle ...yes, may be he did many bad moves ...but it was firstly man who contributed to that you can write like this now, even if he did it for different reasons. ...I do not know what things were dug out on to him here [on forum], it is partly true about his alcoholism, but he, if you saw some [TV] document about him, you can see... (how many of you don't drink you supermen...)

I personally consider him man in positive sense, for sure million times more than meciar, slota or fico [Slovak politicians] ...he did for Slovaks and Czechs more than all of those comrades together even if, as I say, he did not do just good..."
*text in [] by me.

And that is most positive comment I found there ...no kidding!

Now of course readers of these sites are not representatives of whole Czech and Slovak nations. There are people who like him also here.

Links to those articles, you can try luck with google translator if you wish:
http://dolezite.sk/Vaclav_Havel_nas_Prezident_184.html (Slovak language, positive)
http://dolezite.sk/Zemrel_Vaclav_Havel_170.html (Czech language positive)
http://dolezite.sk/Vaclav_Havel_z_ji...ince__211.html (Czech language, critical)

arras

Velvet Disappointment: Vaclav Havel’s Complicating Final Chapter

Putzi

And someone would say that even Hitler didn't kill as many people in post-USSR than Gorbachev (and Yeltsin) did with their actions. So that was worse than just breaking our integrity.