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Old February 21st, 2012, 10:36 PM   #21

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Originally Posted by Iraq Bruin View Post
I always wondered, If he did not invade countries, would Hitler be like say, Franco of Spain?
Probably yes. But then it would not be Hitler anymore, invading countries was very much part of his thinking since he went in to politics.
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Old February 21st, 2012, 10:42 PM   #22

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Just don't perform these actions on April 20th.


I always had a question and I hope am not being offensive (and I don't intend it that way ), it is more speculative alternative history I know, but what is the biggest source of Germans hatred towards Hitler , he has done so many ugly things, which one stands out more ?

1-War(s) that led to Germany's destruction and partitioning ?
2-Human rights crimes against the people in Germany and occupied lands ?

I always wondered, If he did not invade countries, would Hitler be like say, Franco of Spain?
I think one cannot say this or at least I can't say this. I am sure a lot hate him for his crimes. But I suppose as well that he is hated because he led us into our greatest catastrophy. I would suppose as well, that people hate Hitler because he was able to fool us and that we were so stupid to follow him and have to be ashamed of it today.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 12:54 AM   #23
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I don't think that the question itself should concern only Germans. I find no reason for Germans to have a different idea about Hitler than every body else does. Nor that Germans should be ashamed of what Nazism did in their name.

On the other hand, Nazism is part of history, mostly of German history. There were Nazist in other countries too, even in allies-side countries. In occupied Greece, there was a government installed by Nazis, Tsolakoglou was its prime minister, a hatred government of criminals that worked together with occupation forces.

As for the percentages of votes Beorna brought to the discussion (a very useful contribution), I have to add the sad fact that since the austerity and the crisis that we are facing here in Greece, in some poor areas, a Neo-Nazi party has reached the astronomical percentage of 2.8 percent in pools, which was inconceivable before the crisis. They even managed to have a representative of the municipal council of Athens, which is one of the worst impacts of the crisis in our political system and one thing that I personally cannot contain nor tolerate. It makes me remember that Hitler himself, took advantage of a major crisis.

As for German politicians, for me it is way more important to remember Willy Brandt. The man is here, with another great person:

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 09:04 AM   #24

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Just don't perform these actions on April 20th.
We're actually arriving on the 21st of April so unfortunately I'll miss all the celebration.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 09:35 AM   #25

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Wilhelm II was infinitely better than Hitler, needless to explain why.
oh most definitely. one certainly good thing to point out was that at least Wilhelm did not interfere too much with military decisions or try to overrule Hindenburg and Ludendorff of which hitler notoriously did. they both still lost but at least when i read about WW1 i'm not on the brink of tearing my hair out as i read of a deranged politican ranting like a child at distinguished Generals and calling them cowards!
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 11:01 AM   #26

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Unfortunately for Germany and Germans Hitler did destroy Germans reputation in the world. He also did everything what was possible for him to destroy German culture. His very limited views on literature, arts, music and architecture made a significant gap in the history of German culture. His short reign did cast a great shadow on the history of German nation and made many forget that before Hitler Germans were considered as one of the greatest nations in history who rather didnt have many reasons to feel ashamed.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 04:02 AM   #27

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Thumbs up? Thumbs down?
The most important things have already been said in this thread. It is always interesting to note that people outside of Germany even consider that Hitler could be perceived as "Thumbs up" in Germany. I would like to state the hypothesis that no country in the world has ever seen a more extreme turn than Germany after 1945. Besides a small number of extremists, nobody in Germany will defend Hitler.

The reasons for that may differ however. For some, the moral question is central, that is the crimes committed by Germany under Hitler. For others, Hitler is more a national catastrophe for Germany itself, due to the lost war with all its consequences. Besides being the main perpretrator of WWII, Germany was also one of its main victims, due to the wide-scale destruction of all major cities, the loss of a quarter of its territory, the death of up to 10% of its pre-war population, and the expulsion of 15 millions Germans from their home in Central and Eastern Europe, the biggest expulsion of modern history. Germany also lost its reputation and intellectual influence; leading scientists and artists, many of them Jewish, emigrated to the US, explaining in part the leading role of US universities today and the decline of German educational and research institutions.

Although a large majority thus despises Hitler, this does not exclude small extremist groups who admire him. Right-wing extremism is indeed a problem in Germany, especially in small towns of the former East Germany, where civil society is weaker than in the West. The poison of racism promoted by National Socialism is still present in a significant percentage of Germans, but most are fighting it and trying to build a peaceful society.

There is also a counter-reaction to Nazi accusations in young Germans, which is psychologically understandable: If you blame young people for things they didn't perpetrate, some of them will be annoyed and consider changing sides and defending their ancestors. For example, if Germans are in conflict with others, it is usually only a matter of time until the Nazi argument comes up, irrespective of the topic discussed. A good example is Greece, where German intervention is criticized by depicting chancellor Angela Merkel, born in 1954, in Nazi uniform.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 06:39 AM   #28
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Thumbs up? Thumbs down?
As an old Hungarian living in Germany said to me, "worst Gastarbeiter we ever let in".
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Old March 1st, 2012, 05:25 PM   #29
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Unfortunately for Germany and Germans Hitler did destroy Germans reputation in the world. He also did everything what was possible for him to destroy German culture. His very limited views on literature, arts, music and architecture made a significant gap in the history of German culture. His short reign did cast a great shadow on the history of German nation and made many forget that before Hitler Germans were considered as one of the greatest nations in history who rather didnt have many reasons to feel ashamed.
I mean, hitler was no saint, but he was elected to his position.

Not only was he elected, he held a vote to the public after he was elected to get the publics approval of what he was doing (in the mid 30's) and he got a 99 point something approval rating. It's not like hitler took the entire country hostage and made people do his will. nothing could be any further from the truth.

hitler was a very bad black eye to the world, not just germans, but you have to call a spade a spade. There was a lot of anti semitism going on at that time and it wasn't just one person or a group of people. the entire country was behind him.
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Old March 1st, 2012, 06:22 PM   #30
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Yeah Hitler was voted in but if the New Testament is to be believed then Baarabas won the popular vote over Christ too as to who Pontius Pilate was to crucify-some democratic decisions can be bad decisions.
Ithink most modern Germans deserve credit for the way that they have tried to exorcise the crimes of the Nazi/Hitler regime between 1933-45.
From German volunteers in the 1960' coming to help build Coventry cathedral in nglnd which the Luftwaffe destroyed in 1940 to the Burgomeister and Bishop of Hamburg (both female) telling a 1993 rally commemorating the 50th annivesary of the great allied firebombing raids of July 1943 (Operation Gommorah) which killed 30,000 Hamburgers of all ages that therse raids were the desreved penalty that ''our fathers supporting Nazism and persecuting the Jews...''
I also take great comfort from the passion of modren Germans to embrace the kind of culture -from Jazz to rock and roll that the Nazis would have denounced as ''degenerate Jewsh culture''.
No modern German should ever feel guilty for the Holocaust or other Nazi era crimes because they were not around then but neither should the deny or forget the excesses of Nazism either.
My late father used to get annoyed with me when I pointed out to him everytime he propounded his favourite theory that Germans were all a bunch of warmongers-that the greatest anti-war novel ever writen ''IM WESTEN, NICHTS NEUE''-I.E. ''ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT'' was written by a German veteran of World War One-Erich Maria Remarque ( a novel which Hitler and the Nazis banned on coming to power in 1933. so powerful was its anti-war message.)
So I think that most Germans-apart from Neo- Nazi schuften und pantoffelhelden reject the whole Nazi era as a nightmare scenario.
P-S-Although I do wish that te modern citizens of that most pro-Nazi of German cities Dresden -would stop asking we Brits to apologise for bombing them on February 15 1945-with over 200 active war industries working flat out for the Third Reich war effort in ebruary 1945 they were a legitimate military target.
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