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Old March 5th, 2012, 06:29 AM   #241
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Evidences please.
May be you need some proofs that the Earth doesn't stand on some lumbering elephants or there is no magical truncheons in the World?
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Old March 5th, 2012, 07:56 AM   #242

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I can also imagine traditional Welsh village and visualise what bourgeois revolution did with it. What do you think where did British got those masses of people which they shipped like a slaves in to the New World and Australia?
Arras, what on earth are you talking about?
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Old March 5th, 2012, 08:05 AM   #243

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Arras, what on earth are you talking about?
Impact of communistic revolution in Russia and bourgeois revolution in England on rural communities was very similar.
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Old March 5th, 2012, 08:32 AM   #244

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Impact of communistic revolution in Russia and bourgeois revolution in England on rural communities was very similar.
What do you mean by "bourgeois revolution"?
The British industrial revolution 18/19 century? In the late 18th and 19th c. Victorian England poverty was widespread of course. And death of hunger occurred too - there as well as in other European countries.

But in what way is that comparable to Holodomor: starving 6.3 million people over just a few years (mainly 1932-33) in the 1930's of the 20th century? And this in one of the most fertile areas of the European continent?
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Old March 5th, 2012, 10:01 AM   #245
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May be you need some proofs that the Earth doesn't stand on some lumbering elephants or there is no magical truncheons in the World?
There are proofs that Earth doesn't stand on lumbering elephants and there are proofs that there are no magical wand in the world. So would u be so kind provide similiar evidences reagarding your statement?
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Old November 20th, 2012, 03:36 AM   #246

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Why is Stalin so popular in Russia and other post-Soviet states? Because under him, USSR went from anarchial, impoverished rural state into a superpower. Tens of millions of former peasants became doctors, engineers, scientists. Peasants themselves received education and health-care. Hundreds of thousands of hospitals, universities, power plants, and scientific centers were built all around the country. The spirit was one of enthusiasm, patriotism, and unity. Ask anyone who lived during those times and this is what they will tell you 95%.

As for the "tens of millions" "murdered" by Stalin, this is total bogus based on vague "estimates" of psuedo-historians. Actual archival data shows this to be total lies.

Soviet population:

January 1926 : 148,656,000[2]
January 1937: 162,500,000[2]
January 1939: 168,524,000[2]
June 1941: 196,716,000[2]
January 1946: 170,548,000[2]
January 1951: 182,321,000[2]
January 1959: 209,035,000[2]
January 1970: 241,720,000[3]
1985: 272,000,000
July 1991: 293,047,571

There is no corresponding drop for supposed "50 million" killed by Stalin, if the 27 million of WW2 deaths are obviously shown. This is a bogus myth with no historical foundation.

NKVD archives show the scale of repressions to be massively inflated. Historian Zhukov says, he went into the archives, opened in 1989, an anti-Stalinist, and came out a Stalinist.

" "?

This shows the amount of people directly executed by NKVD for anti-state activities was 642,980. This includes terrorism, espionage, and sabotage. Many of them were innocent, yes. But the amount of people suffered is far, far less than the amount of people who gained from the Stalin system.

Stalin FACTS:

The adventure led from the illiteracy to literacy, from the NEP to socialism, from archaic agriculture to collective cultivation, from a rural society to a predominately urban community, from general ignorance of the machine to social mastery of modern technology.
Between the poverty stricken year of 1924, when Lenin died, and the relatively abundant year of 1940, the cultivated area of USSR expanded by 74 percent; grain crops increased 11 percent; coal production was multiplied by 10; steel output by 18; engineering and metal industries by 150; total national income by 10; industrial output by 24; annual capital investment by 57. During the First Five-year Plan, 51 billion rubles were invested; during the Second, 114; and during the Third, 192. Factory and office workers grew from 7,300,000 to 30,800,000 and school and college students from 7,900,000 to 36,600,000. Between 1913 and 1940, oil production increased from nine to 35 million tons; coal from 29 to 164; pig iron from 4 to 15; steel from 4 to 18; machine tools from 1000 to 48,000 units, tractors from 0 to over 500,000; harvestor combines from 0 to 153,500; electrical power output from two billion kWh to 50 billion; and the value of industrial output from 11 billion rubles to more than 100 billion by 1938. If the estimated volume of total industrial production in 1913 be taken as 100, the corresponding indices for 1938 are 93.2 for France; 113.3 for England, 120 United States; 131.6 for Germany, and 908.8 for the Soviet Union.


Schuman, Frederick L. Soviet Politics. New York: A.A. Knopf, 1946, p. 212

The Soviets attained under Stalin's rule the first place in the world in regard to tractors, machines, and motor trucks; the second as to electric power. Russia, 20 years ago the least mechanized country, has become the foremost.... In the same decade between 1929 in 1939, in which the production of all other countries barely mounted, while even dropping in some, Soviet production was multiplied by 4. The national income mounted between 1913 in 1938 from 21 to 105 billion rubles. The income of the individual citizen was increased by 370% in the last eight years--with only irrelevant income taxes and reasonable social security contributions imposed upon them--while it dropped almost everywhere else in the world.


Ludwig, Emil, Stalin. New York, New York: G. P. Putnam's sons, 1942, p. 129


When we consider Stalin's facts and figures, it becomes clear that we are witnessing the most concentrated economic advance ever recorded--greater even than those of the Industrial Revolution. Within 10 years a primarily feudal society had been changed into an industrialized one. And for the first time in history such an advance was due not to capitalism but to socialism.


Cameron, Kenneth Neill. Stalin, Man of Contradiction. Toronto: NC Press, c1987, p. 75

No other country has managed to accomplish what Stalin's USSR did. Without this, the USSR would have lost the war, and Russians would not exist as a nation at all. And in spite of poverty, the spirit in the air during Stalin period was one of extreme enthusiasm, patriotism, and excitement. People saw the incredible advancement that was going on around them and supported the Soviet government on that basis. Soldiers yelled "For Stalin" when they fought in battle, and the entire country cried when Stalin died. This is not my imagination- this is what I got from interacting with many people who lived during Stalin period.

It is truly remarkable that in spite of Kruschev's de-Stalinization, the extreme de-Stalinization of Gorbachev and Yeltsin, when TV would pound anti-Stalin and anti-Soviet propoganda 24/7, stretching even to this day, Stalin remains popular in the minds of Russians.

Last edited by Koba; November 20th, 2012 at 03:49 AM.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 04:06 AM   #247

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Why do you think that dozens upon dozens of sources say that Stalin killed on average 20 million? Where those numbers came from?
Have you read how the numbers are calculated? A few historians make some "estimates", and then other historians quote those historians, and other historians those historians, and so on ad nauseum. They are based on nothing whatsoever- arbitrary "estimates" with no factual basis. The Soviet archives were opened in 1989, and it showed that the scale of Stalin's repressions are totally overblown. Many of these "historians" tried to defend themselves by saying that the NKVD, a closed organization, was lying to itself to make itself look less bad to itself. Thankfully, only the uneducated and the mentally retarded believe this nonsense.

I come from a Soviet family- I don't have a single repressed relative, and neither does anybody I know. Yet if Stalin is supposed to have r"executed" the same amount of people who died in WW2, I am supposed to have as many relatives repressed as I have who died in WW2- I do not.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 04:12 AM   #248

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Hardly anyone used to believe in the Holocaust, you know. It really took a lot to convince the majority that it was real. Unfortunately, there were no Allied troops to liberate Gulag inmates and take photos.

Which makes it possible to sell BS today. Actually, that's what the newly approved RF history coursebooks are about to start doing in earnest.
What a totally rational comparison... Death camps where people were exterminated on the basis of their ethnicity vs. labor prison camps where 88% of the population was there for violent crime (this is in 1937, the percentage of political prisoners increases later on but the majority was always non-political) with death rates only slightly higher than in the mainland.

Click the image to open in full size.

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If he didn't it certainly wasn't due to lack of sustained effort

Arras, picture a traditional Ukrainian village, wooden huts built on centuries long lines, icons on walls, gardens, cherry orchards. Now see the kolhoyz reality that followed as a result of collectivisatiion. Can you visualize it? Read any accounts? I have - plenty. And this is only talking culture and visuals (which should mean something to you, nevertheless)
I can visualize it, unlike you, because I actually have relatives who went through collectivization and told me about what it was like. Education and health-care was extended into the villages. Farm output increased massively. People lived poorly, but happily. Recreational facilities were created, like wooden carousels, by the Soviet government. All my relatives say life was worse before collectivization- but they were bednyaks, or poor peasants, i.e. the vast majority of peasants. Kulaks of course lived much better because of exploitation of the poor peasants.

Last edited by Koba; November 20th, 2012 at 04:23 AM.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:20 AM   #249

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I can visualize it, unlike you, because I actually have relatives who went through collectivization and told me about what it was like. Education and health-care was extended into the villages. Farm output increased massively. People lived poorly, but happily. Recreational facilities were created, like wooden carousels, by the Soviet government. All my relatives say life was worse before collectivization- but they were bednyaks, or poor peasants, i.e. the vast majority of peasants. Kulaks of course lived much better because of exploitation of the poor peasants.
Koba (wasn't that Stalin's nickname? ),

If you are middle aged now and had a chance to talk to grandparents they may really have remembered these days - just like my grandparents vividly remembered life under the Soviets 1939-41, as well as thousands of Poles trapped in the USSR after the Treaty of Riga witnessed and never forgot the Great Hunger of 1932-33.

This lady, Francesca Michalska b.1923, is a retired doctor - a well loved pediatrician living in the small Polish town of Siemiatycze. She experienced enforced collectivisation, with the accompanying mass starvation and forced mass deportations. Thanks to her I know what childrens' death from starvation looks like -she watched her niece eating grass and vomiting. She also vividly described what their Ukrainian village looked like before and after.


Click the image to open in full size.

If your relatives were really present on the scene they must have seen what was really happening and what the communist party troikas were doing. They might have been reluctant to pass on this knowledge to their descendants.

So don't give me that "poor but happy" socrealist kitch. I'm afraid you've confused the poster with reality.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:14 AM   #250

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My relatives have a different experience- in spite of poverty, which was worse before Soviet power anyway, they received education and health-care. But I guess they were actually just being tortured in the GULAG by Stalin himself, and their positive memories implanted by mind control.

Maybe Poles were worse off... But they were a minority in Western Ukraine and Western Byelorussia, seized after Polish aggression in 1920:

Due to Polish government's discrimination against the Ukrainian minority during the interbellum, these troops were sometimes greeted with genuine joy by Ukrainian villagers,[1] In other cases, support demonstrations were staged by pro-Soviet militia.[4]

Healthcare, especially in the villages, was improved dramatically.[2] Between the two world wars Poland had drastically reduced the number of Ukrainian-language schools while Romania had eliminated them completely.[14] These were now reopened and, although the Russian language became a mandatory foreign-language course, the schools were taught in Ukrainian.

In the annexed territories, over 50 percent of the land had belonged to Polish or Romanian landlords while approximately 75% of the Ukrainian peasants owned less than two hectares of land per household. Starting in 1939 lands not owned by the peasants were seized and slightly less than half of them were distributed to landless peasants free of charge; the rest were given to new collective farms.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...939–1940
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