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Old November 21st, 2012, 05:41 AM   #251
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My relatives have a different experience- in spite of poverty, which was worse before Soviet power anyway, they received education and health-care. But I guess they were actually just being tortured in the GULAG by Stalin himself, and their positive memories implanted by mind control.

Maybe Poles were worse off... But they were a minority in Western Ukraine and Western Byelorussia, seized after Polish aggression in 1920:

Due to Polish government's discrimination against the Ukrainian minority during the interbellum, these troops were sometimes greeted with genuine joy by Ukrainian villagers,[1] In other cases, support demonstrations were staged by pro-Soviet militia.[4]

Healthcare, especially in the villages, was improved dramatically.[2] Between the two world wars Poland had drastically reduced the number of Ukrainian-language schools while Romania had eliminated them completely.[14] These were now reopened and, although the Russian language became a mandatory foreign-language course, the schools were taught in Ukrainian.

In the annexed territories, over 50 percent of the land had belonged to Polish or Romanian landlords while approximately 75% of the Ukrainian peasants owned less than two hectares of land per household. Starting in 1939 lands not owned by the peasants were seized and slightly less than half of them were distributed to landless peasants free of charge; the rest were given to new collective farms.[1]

Soviet annexation of Western Ukraine, 1939
I wouldn't have intervened in this thread, but it seems you are either a malicious propagandist or a poor victim of propaganda. I know about the Soviet "healthy social origin" concept, with all the lazy, the drunkards and the idiots who terrorized hard-working and prosperous people, and stole everything of value from their home. About what annexed territories do you refer and the elimination of which Ukrainian schools?
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Old November 21st, 2012, 08:32 PM   #252

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Yes, you're right. My 90+ year old great-grandmothers and great-grandfather were KGB agents whose job it was to brainwash the young generation into having pro-Soviet views. In reality, every single person in the USSR from 1917 to 1991 was 24/7 tortured by Stalin in the GULAGs, who was literally Satan on earth, killed only when Jesus descended from the heavens and shot him with lightning bolts.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 08:48 PM   #253

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Welcome back, Montage.

Hope you know that the mortality rate in the Sazlag during the peacetime (1932,1933,1938) used to be much higher than in wartime (1943-1944) Buchenwald, Dachau or Bergen-Belsen. If the later are named the deathcamps what was the first ones than?
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Old November 21st, 2012, 09:46 PM   #254

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Don't know who Montage is- I am just another Russian, a member of a nation which overwhelmingly remembers the Soviet period, and the Stalin era in particular, as a time of enthusiasm and massive internal progress. What a crazy idea, that we, whose families lived in that time, know more about it than Westerners whose only information about the USSR is Hollywood films and rantings of neo-conservative propagandists.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 09:52 PM   #255

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Thank you for clarifying that you didn't know about the mortality rate in Russian deathcamps during Stalin's reign.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 10:27 PM   #256

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There were no Russian "deathcamps". The fraud Solzhenitsyn actually had his throat tumor removed while in the GULAG for treason. I wonder if they preformed life saving operations in Auschwitz?

Click the image to open in full size.

Everywhere I go on the Internet that has anything to do with history or politics, I see the same unending argument between Russians and non-Russians about the USSR history. The simple fact is that the Soviet period was a time of extraordinary heroism, unity, and solidarity unprecedented in the entirety of human history. Fueled by an ideal, the entire country commenced the most concentrated increase in economic growth the world had ever seen, and then rose up as one to defend itself from German invaders, leaving the red flag flying over Berlin. People felt an almost religious feeling of patriotism for their country. The entire nation was united in the pursuit of a historical destiny of Cosmic proportions. These are facts. Everyone has relatives who say the same exact thing... No amount of Svanidzes or Robert Conquests will erase this collective memory from former Soviet consciousness.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 10:44 PM   #257

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The very source of the SazLag statistics is not Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn but the Russian state archive: GA FR, f.9414,op.1, d.1155, l.2,d.2740,l.1,5,8,14,26,38,42,48,58,96-110
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Old November 21st, 2012, 10:55 PM   #258

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You are using one GULAG camp out of many others to prove a point- the graph I posted above is calculated from NKVD archives, and shows that GULAG was not a death camp.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 11:20 PM   #259

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Pick any of the Dachau level camp like Solovki prison camp (1930 e.g.) you would get the same result: Soviets were more brutal in the peacetime than Nazi in the wartime.

BTW, the origin of your source is:

User:Krawndawg
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This account is a sock puppet of LokiiT and has been blocked indefinitely.
Please refer to this Sockpuppet investigation for evidence.
Account information: block log – current autoblocks – edits – logs – abuse log

Not the NKVD data whatsoever.

Last edited by Lors; November 21st, 2012 at 11:28 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 02:32 AM   #260

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The simple fact is that the Soviet period was a time of extraordinary heroism, unity, and solidarity unprecedented in the entirety of human history.
I agree - in hell on earth that the Soviet Gulag was, the heroism, unity and solidarity of prisoners - their humanity occasionally maintained against all odds - shone with intensity perhaps unprecedented in human history (haven't I told you this before? ).

A legacy Russians and Poles will continue to draw strength from for generations to come.

That's the collective memory very much worth delving in, instead of painting such crappy socrealist murals:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koba View Post
Fueled by an ideal, the entire country commenced the most concentrated increase in economic growth the world had ever seen, and then rose up as one to defend itself from German invaders, leaving the red flag flying over Berlin. People felt an almost religious feeling of patriotism for their country. The entire nation was united in the pursuit of a historical destiny of Cosmic proportions. These are facts. Everyone has relatives who say the same exact thing... No amount of Svanidzes or Robert Conquests will erase this collective memory from former Soviet consciousness.
Taste, Koba, taste (don't fashion your literary attempts on the original Koba, he read a great deal but had no sense of prose). Not to mention, you're utterly confusing propaganda with reality and the dream with historical facts.

I can't understand why you insist on choosing rubbish like this:

Click the image to open in full size.

when there's such amazingly beautiful stuff to choose from in the Russian heritage:

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by antonina; November 22nd, 2012 at 02:51 AM.
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