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Old November 28th, 2012, 02:07 AM   #321

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Originally Posted by Kevinmeath View Post
Thats a very interesting post and does say quite alot is a short post.
It is certainly very revealing. As phrased here:

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Originally Posted by Dorothea View Post
Russians don't have any interest in falsyfying the historical truth, because they don't have guilty conscience
Russians certainly don't appear to have "a guilty conscience" about the ocean of misery and millions of deaths caused by the Soviet politburo, in USSR and in countries which had the misfortune to fall under Soviet "protection". Far from it, they keep blaming and accusing their victims.

Appearances, however are misleading. In fact, exactly the opposite is true: Russians have a vested interest in falsifying history because they have a guilty conscience.

As a majority, they've refused to face the enormity of Stalinist crimes.
I read a very interesting analysis of "Russian memory" the other day (the way Stalinist crimes are currently interpreted, commemorated and remembered) in Russia. The author travelled around RF visiting distant locations, like Solovki or Perm.

To sum up: the official version of events (backed up by the Orthodox Church which has traditionally supported the Kremlin) claims not only that Stalinst crimes were widely exaggerated by Russia's enemies, but also that Stalinist/Soviet crimes were and are esentially an internal Rusian problem. The almost entire focus is on Russian victims, who are now hailed as "martyrs" for a better and greater Russia. In this way memory is made more bearable. The "martyrdom" narrative is woven into the old Soviet triumphalist myth of "progress"

Psychologically understandable as this mechanism of denial might be, it is enormously harmful. Firstly, because it entirely falsifies history. Secondly, because millions of non-Russian civilian victims of the Soviets - such as Poles, Fins, Germans, Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Tartars, Chechens etc. have no place in the new Russian narrative. If their story was given voice, Russian would have to accept that the USSR wasn't really less criminal than the Third Reich - something they absolutely refuse to do, as it undermines their founding myth of "forces of light triumphing over the forces of darkness".

That is the reason why members of these nations are furiously attacked whenever they mention their losses. On such occasions they are invariably branded as "fascists" because every child in the Soviet Union knew that USSR prevailed over "fascists". In short, Russia's enemies can only be fascists.

In addition to the question of national identity, which Russians fear would be utterly shaken by the realisation that nearly a century of Soviet Union was destructive and based on nothing but a huge lie, there's unfortunately a practical dimension. Literally millions of people in the Soviet Union were part of the apparatus of repression, and they had/have no wish of ever being held accountable and telling their children the truth about the role they played. This still concerns grandparents, if not parents.

Guys from the Russian Memorial have been doing a wonderful job and many of us have been hoping this would end up in real reconciliation. There still are some isolated but great initiatives (eg. workcamps in Perm where students from Russia and countries like Poland work together to uncover the past hidden in Siberian forests) But the vast majority of Russians, seem to have rejected these efforts. We'll probably have to wait one more generation

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Old November 28th, 2012, 03:01 AM   #322
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A rather vulgarised form "Antośka" does occasionally appear, but then a Polish person would instinctively avail herself of the "ś" on their keybord, unless they've mentally switched to the Russian prononuciation "sh" (mirroring their all-embracing mental switch to the Soviet Russian outlook). Isn't linguistics fascinating?
You apparently underemphasize a rather obvious and prima facie visible fact that the vulgarised form "Antośka" so nicely corresponds with rustical backround of contemporary Polish society. Taking a name "Antonina", which has in Polish a slight aristocratic flavour, is a manouver aiming at suggesting that the roots of your linguistic education are to be located somewhere else than in commonly available educational opportunities created in socialist Poland for simple peasants. It may be a profitable action, but from the human point of view such ungratefulness must be condemned. As you see, linguistics is even more fascinating when mixed with psychology and sociology.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 03:21 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by antonina View Post
It is certainly very revealing. As phrased here:



Russians certainly don't appear to have "a guilty conscience" about the ocean of misery and millions of deaths caused by the Soviet politburo, in USSR and in countries which had the misfortune to fall under Soviet "protection". Far from it, they keep blaming and accusing their victims.

Appearances, however are misleading. In fact, exactly the opposite is true: Russians have a vested interest in falsifying history because they have a guilty conscience.

As a majority, they've refused to face the enormity of Stalinist crimes.
I read a very interesting analysis of "Russian memory" the other day (the way Stalinist crimes are currently interpreted, commemorated and remembered) in Russia. The author travelled around RF visiting distant locations, like Solovki or Perm.

To sum up: the official version of events (backed up by the Orthodox Church which has traditionally supported the Kremlin) claims not only that Stalinst crimes were widely exaggerated by Russia's enemies, but also that Stalinist/Soviet crimes were and are esentially an internal Rusian problem. The almost entire focus is on Russian victims, who are now hailed as "martyrs" for a better and greater Russia. In this way memory is made more bearable. The "martyrdom" narrative is woven into the old Soviet triumphalist myth of "progress"

Psychologically understandable as this mechanism of denial might be, it is enormously harmful. Firstly, because it entirely falsifies history. Secondly, because millions of non-Russian civilian victims of the Soviets - such as Poles, Fins, Germans, Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Tartars, Chechens etc. have no place in the new Russian narrative. If their story was given voice, Russian would have to accept that the USSR wasn't really less criminal than the Third Reich - something they absolutely refuse to do, as it undermines their founding myth of "forces of light triumphing over the forces of darkness".

That is the reason why members of these nations are furiously attacked whenever they mention their losses. On such occasions they are invariably branded as "fascists" because every child in the Soviet Union knew that USSR prevailed over "fascists". In short, Russia's enemies can only be fascists.

In addition to the question of national identity, which Russians fear would be utterly shaken by the realisation that nearly a century of Soviet Union was destructive and based on nothing but a huge lie, there's unfortunately a practical dimension. Literally millions of people in the Soviet Union were part of the apparatus of repression, and they had/have no wish of ever being held accountable and telling their children the truth about the role they played. This still concerns grandparents, if not parents.

Guys from the Russian Memorial have been doing a wonderful job and many of us have been hoping this would end up in real reconciliation. There still are some isolated but great initiatives (eg. workcamps in Perm where students from Russia and countries like Poland work together to uncover the past hidden in Siberian forests) But the vast majority of Russians, seem to have rejected these efforts. We'll probably have to wait one more generation
Of course, you know the truth. You don't know have a shadow of doubt about how much people exactly suffered from the Stalin's actions. I don't want to refute a plethora of preposterous claims in your posts, because you are an incorrigible Polish chauvinist. But for impartial readers I want to point out on several things. Firstly, our dear Antonina hates Stalin so much that he doesn't hesitate to use Goebbels' historical findings. People like her shamelessly use Nazi lies to make their points. And now they are longing for Russia to take them in. Secondly, look how Antonina and other Polish posters relentlessly set about Dorothea. With assistance of one Muslims terrorist, whom such kind of people just adore.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 05:00 AM   #324

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Originally Posted by Dorothea View Post
You apparently underemphasize a rather obvious and prima facie visible fact that the vulgarised form "Antośka" so nicely corresponds with rustical backround of contemporary Polish society. Taking a name "Antonina", which has in Polish a slight aristocratic flavour, is a manouver aiming at suggesting that the roots of your linguistic education are to be located somewhere else than in commonly available educational opportunities created in socialist Poland for simple peasants. It may be a profitable action, but from the human point of view such ungratefulness must be condemned. As you see, linguistics is even more fascinating when mixed with psychology and sociology.
Elena,

like all Russians, you have an entrenched vision of Polish "szlachta". In my posts to Montage I stressed the fact that Poland is a peasant country, as well as my own working-class (= simple peasant) background. I've always been proud of it. My grandmother Antonina who died in the Ravensbruck concentration camp was a railroad worker's daughter, one of a family of six. Her husband, my grandfather, also came from a working class family, the first and only one of eight children to get a scholarship to university and become an engineer. He was killed in 1939 during the German/Soviet invasion.

Concerning Polish-Russian relations: have you heard of Nikolai Ivanov?
He's a Russian historian married to a Pole and living here. He always says how important it is that Polish people tell Russians their side of the story. You need to hear it, face it and acknowledge the reality of what happened. We really won't help you by betraying our dead.

For example: we can't help it that 139,835 Polish people were sentenced and 111,091 methodically executed in 1937/38 on NKVD Order 00486. Have you heard of this, do you know the details of the operation and methods of execution? These are described in detail in documents from Soviet archives (sometimes NKVD men wore butcher's aprons). On the subsequent Order 00486, wives of the victims were deported in inhuman conditions and their children forcibly placed in Soviet orphanages. All posessions were confiscated and houses sealed - elderly parents if left became homeless and destitute. So you will have to multiply the original death figure. Don't ask for an exect one - biezpriozorni dying by the roadside weren't counted in, were they.

The Polish Operation of the NKVD (1937

Tip: Polish people never talk of "White Poland", the term isn't known here, unless in quotes from Soviet propaganda. I really don't know why I should be coaching you, but there it is. It's probably because I really like Russians - you and other Russian posters would notice it long ago if you weren't blind as bats.

Last edited by antonina; November 28th, 2012 at 05:05 AM.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 05:12 AM   #325

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Originally Posted by Lord Lucan View Post
1,000,000 is too low even for Stalinist standards where did you get that figure?

And why Stalin worshiping has to be associated with a possibility to become doctor or winning the war? Do you think that only historical possibility of all available in which Russian people could become scientists, doctors, or engineers are the one where Stalin is on top. Or that Russia would just roll over and die in 1941 if Stalin wasn't there? Do Russians need totalitarian regime to thrive?

And my grandmother would be quite offended if someone would waltz in front of her dressed in Stalin T-shirt.
Yes, it is too low, my bad, I was tired and got my numbers mixed up.

According to a letter to Kruschev in 1954, and also corresponding with archival data from the Historical Archives of the Russian Federation:

Quote:
... From 1921 to this time, for counter-revolutionary crimes were judged 3,777,380 people- sentenced to death were 642.980 people, to camps and prisons- 2,369,220, and to ssylka and vyssylka (ssylka is forced deportation to somewhere, usually Siberia, and vyssylka is the ban on entering major cities, but otherwise free to move around) 765,180 people.
Out of a population of 200,000,000 people, this is less than 2% of the population. Today imprisoned in US jails and prisons are more of a percentage of the population than the USSR under Stalin.

Maybe you've heard of a little thing called industrialization and the five year plans? Without them, the rural and overwhelmingly agrarian country would not have been able to win the war.

Before Soviet rule, 85% of the country lived in practically medieval conditions- most Russians were illiterate peasants living far away from major cities and with no access to healthcare or education. Under Lenin and Stalin, the country was electrified, healthcare and education was extended into villages, and incidents of disease decreased hugely.

By 1938, the 21 years of Soviet rule had brought about a 50% reduction in child mortality rate.

The height of the average Soviet child in 1938 was one and a quarter inches greater than that of the average child in tsarist Russia.

The weight of the average Soviet child was eleven and a half pounds greater in 1937 than in 1925.

The chest expansion of the average Soviet child in 1938 was roughly 1 inch greater than that of the average child in tsarist Russia.

Incidence of tuberculosis decreased 83% under Soviet rule up till 1938 and continued to decrease.

Cases of syphilis decreased 90% by 1938 and continued to decrease.

The death rate in 1937 in the USSR was 40% below the death rate in Russia in 1913 (implying a much higher life expectancy)

-Life expectancy increased from 32 in 1913 to 63 in 1956. The trend continued into the 1960s, when the life expectancy in the Soviet Union went beyond the life expectancy in the United States. Arguments are made that even without the October Revolution, Russia would have seen an equivalent increase in life expectancy as that accomplished by the USSR. This notion is questioned by data showing life expectancy at 35 in Albania and 32 in China in 1949.

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Before the Revolution,76% of the people were illiterate, including 88%of the women. Virtually complete illiteracy prevailed among the indigenous populations of Siberia and Soviet Central Asia. Indeed, more than 40 languages had not been reduced to writing at all. Prior to the revolution, only 290,000 Russians possessed any kind of higher education, whereas the 1959 census reported that more than 13 Million citizens had some higher or specialized secondary education, and more than 45 million people had 7-10 years of education....Raising the literacy rate from 24% to 98.5% within the span of a single generation for more than 200 million people would be an achievement in itself if only one language were involved, to say nothing of the severe problems posed by a multilingual society....

To detail the massive character of the Soviet educational effort in Central Asia, the Uzbek Republic, which is the most advanced of the Central Asian areas today, as it was in pre-Revolutionary Russia, provides an apt illustration. Before the Revolution, only 2% of the population was literate. There were no native engineers, doctors, or teachers with a higher education. In short, Central Asia was no different in this respect from most of the colonial dependencies of the European powers, and worse off than many.

Today, in the Uzbek Republic alone, there are 32 institutions of higher learning, more than 100 technicums, 50 special technical schools, 12 teachers' colleges, and 1400 kindergartens. Nearly 2,500,000 children attend school, and more than 50% of its teachers have had some higher education...The rate of literacy is over 95%. The Republic before the Revolution possessed no public libraries: today there are nearly 5,000. The number of books printed in the Uzbek language in 1913 was 118,000;today it approaches 19 million. When this record is compared with that of Iran, Afghanistan, the Arab countries, the states of Southeast Asia, or even Turkey, all of which were at a comparable or more advanced level of educational attainment in 1914, the achievement is impressive...
Quote:
At the time of the Bolshevik Revolution, 37.9 percent of the male population above seven years old was literate and only 12.5 percent of the female population was literate. These low literacy rates dropped further in the turbulence caused by the Russian Civil War and in the famines, epidemics, and disorganization that followed from it. These same factors also caused a decrease in the general educational level in the country.

Beginning in 1922 Soviet authorities started implementing a far-reaching, large-scale educational program with the goals of universal education and eliminating illiteracy among adults. By 1938 the government had established a network of four-year elementary schools covering the Soviet Union, and seven-year schools for children in urban areas. In addition, whereas before 1914 there were almost no kindergartens in Russia, the Soviets rapidly developed preschool education, including kindergarten, as part of their national program. Education at these schools was traditional, and strict discipline was enforced. Soviet schools were especially strong in mathematics and the hard sciences but also stressed language, literature, and history, a big change from the tsarist schools, which taught only the fundamentals of reading and arithmetic.

In an attempt to help illiterate adults, the Bolsheviks launched an ambitious campaign between 1923 and 1927 called "Down with Illiteracy of Society," which depended on volunteers. Members of the Bolshevik youth organization, the Komsomol, were especially enthusiastic participants. One of its campaign posters said, "Literacy is the path to communism. The general census of December 1926 underscored the success of this campaign. For the first time in Russian history the majority of the population could read and write: 65.4 percent of males and 36.7 percent of females (above the age of seven years). By the 1939 census, 81.1 percent of Soviet citizens (age ten and above) were literate, and by the 1960s literacy was common to almost all of the Soviet Union's citizens. The most rapid increase occurred in the first ten years after the revolution, a remarkable feat for the Soviet Union.
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The adventure led from the illiteracy to literacy, from the NEP to socialism, from archaic agriculture to collective cultivation, from a rural society to a predominately urban community, from general ignorance of the machine to social mastery of modern technology.
Between the poverty stricken year of 1924, when Lenin died, and the relatively abundant year of 1940, the cultivated area of USSR expanded by 74 percent; grain crops increased 11 percent; coal production was multiplied by 10; steel output by 18; engineering and metal industries by 150; total national income by 10; industrial output by 24; annual capital investment by 57. During the First Five-year Plan, 51 billion rubles were invested; during the Second, 114; and during the Third, 192. Factory and office workers grew from 7,300,000 to 30,800,000 and school and college students from 7,900,000 to 36,600,000. Between 1913 and 1940, oil production increased from nine to 35 million tons; coal from 29 to 164; pig iron from 4 to 15; steel from 4 to 18; machine tools from 1000 to 48,000 units, tractors from 0 to over 500,000; harvestor combines from 0 to 153,500; electrical power output from two billion kWh to 50 billion; and the value of industrial output from 11 billion rubles to more than 100 billion by 1938. If the estimated volume of total industrial production in 1913 be taken as 100, the corresponding indices for 1938 are 93.2 for France; 113.3 for England, 120 United States; 131.6 for Germany, and 908.8 for the Soviet Union.


Schuman, Frederick L. Soviet Politics. New York: A.A. Knopf, 1946, p. 212


The Soviets attained under Stalin's rule the first place in the world in regard to tractors, machines, and motor trucks; the second as to electric power. Russia, 20 years ago the least mechanized country, has become the foremost.... In the same decade between 1929 in 1939, in which the production of all other countries barely mounted, while even dropping in some, Soviet production was multiplied by 4. The national income mounted between 1913 in 1938 from 21 to 105 billion rubles. The income of the individual citizen was increased by 370% in the last eight years--with only irrelevant income taxes and reasonable social security contributions imposed upon them--while it dropped almost everywhere else in the world.


Ludwig, Emil, Stalin. New York, New York: G. P. Putnam's sons, 1942, p. 129


When we consider Stalin's facts and figures, it becomes clear that we are witnessing the most concentrated economic advance ever recorded--greater even than those of the Industrial Revolution. Within 10 years a primarily feudal society had been changed into an industrialized one. And for the first time in history such an advance was due not to capitalism but to socialism.


Cameron, Kenneth Neill. Stalin, Man of Contradiction. Toronto: NC Press, c1987, p. 75
A book by Harvard economist Robert C. Allen called "Farm to Factory" uses economic analysis to show Russia would not have achieved similar levels of advancement without authoritarian socialism, and would have stagnated under capitalism.

Quote:
A boom in the world market for wheat more than doubled Russian GDP between 1885 and 1913. Railroad building drew peripheral parts of the Russian Empire into the world market and stimulated a rise in agricultural productivity. Agricultural output doubled, and indusrial output was pushed up by an aggressive policy of import substitution. Despite these advances, however, the pace of structural transformation was slow, and the bases of rising income were narrow. The exhaustion of these lines of development and changed in the world economy made it unlikely that Russia could have maintained its nineteenth-century rate of growth through the middle of the twentieth century. Furthermore, the rate of industrialisation was not high enough compared to the rate of population growth to shift the structure of the economy dramatically away from agriculture. Rising food prices offset the increase in wages caused by the wheat boom. As a result, the benefits of growth did not trickle down to the working class. In the countryside, the rising incomes from rising wheat prices did not yield social peace since land values rose instead of wages. The advantaged of large-scale farms meant that even peasants farming allotment land were threatened by the Stolypin reforms that aimed to replace the commune with a free market in land. It is unlikely that capitalism would have continued to bring economic growth to Russia. Moreover, the process of capitalist development was producing such sharp class conflicts that political instability was hardly a surprise.
But of course, Russians have a "slave" mentality. This is much easier than actually bothering to read a book or be educated. And you can say that all facts and data showing the Soviets achieved great strides are just "commie propaganda" and Westerners who traveled to the USSR, like Jack Reed and Paul Robeson, and said great things are "brainwashed" or maybe forced by the KGB to write their praise at gunpoint

Last edited by Koba; November 28th, 2012 at 05:28 AM.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 05:29 AM   #326

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Firstly, our dear Antonina hates Stalin so much that he doesn't hesitate to use Goebbels' historical findings.
Have a look at the link I enclosed. All the information comes from Soviet archives, look up the NKVD orders quoted if you don't believe me. The accompanying documentation was made available by the Ukrainian Institute of Rememberance.

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People like her shamelessly use Nazi lies to make their points
How is this a lie if the orders were signed by Jezhov's own hand? The protocols of troikas are also signed by name. Documentation on the Polish operation is extensive and leaves no doubt about who did it and why.

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look how Antonina and other Polish posters relentlessly set about Dorothea.
I wouldn't mind talking to the poster under her real Russian name, but I resent her hiding behind a fake Polish identity.

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With assistance of one Muslims terrorist, whom such kind of people just adore.
You know, Pavel, frankly speaking I always tend to sympathize with people forced to live under foreign rule which they loathe. This goes for Chechens trying to get rid of Russian rule, as well as any other nationality. Including (historically) Ukrainians trying to get rid of Polish rule.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 06:40 AM   #327

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With assistance of one Muslims terrorist, whom such kind of people just adore.
calling a fellow member of the forum a terrorist is an insult and its against the rules of this board
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Old November 28th, 2012, 10:21 AM   #328
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calling a fellow member of the forum a terrorist is an insult and its against the rules of this board
One apparently pushes forward agenda of the routed terrorists. I'm sure he claimed to lap up Osama Ben Laden. In Russia to call such kind of people terrorists isn't an insult but mere stating a fact
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Old November 28th, 2012, 10:32 AM   #329

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calling a fellow member of the forum a terrorist is an insult and its against the rules of this board
When the word terrorist has became an insult? This is the respected profession in some regions, as far as I know. Some of them are proud to be terrorists.

Last edited by Potap; November 28th, 2012 at 10:38 AM.
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Old November 28th, 2012, 12:37 PM   #330
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You know, Pavel, frankly speaking I always tend to sympathize with people forced to live under foreign rule which they loathe. This goes for Chechens trying to get rid of Russian rule, as well as any other nationality. Including (historically) Ukrainians trying to get rid of Polish rule.
The Chechens haven't tried to get rid of the Russian rule because Chechenya is an integral region of Russia. Yeah, there were some Arabian mercenaries-terrorists who waged a war against the Russian and Chechens, and if you still support then you should convert to Islam, begin to worship Satan and hail Sheik Usama Ben Laden.
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