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Old March 6th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #1

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'Romani' ("Gypsies") were Turkic traders ?


c.1000 AD, the expanding Oghuz confederacy, of Turkic tribes, dwelt between the Caspian & Aral seas:
Click the image to open in full size.
One of the Oghuz tribes was the Kinik; and one of the Kinik clans was the Seljuk, named after their leader, Seljuk Beg, who converted to Islam. By c.1050 AD, his sons & grand-sons had expanded their power, into Afghanistan & Iran; the Abbasid Caliph of Iraq (Baghdad) dubbed one grand-son, Tugrul, as "Sultan" ("strong man"); and the Seljuks adopted Iranian (Persian) customs. By c.1100 AD, the Seljuks had expanded their power, and Iranian customs, across Anatolia:
Click the image to open in full size.
Meanwhile, another Oghuz tribe, the Uzes, expanded their power, across the Russian steppe, as far as the Danube. The Uzes, who retained their Tengriist traditions, were beaten back, in the Balkans, by the Byzantines, and perhaps plague, c.1065 AD (as the Vikings & Anglo-Saxons were beaten in Britain). These Turkic expansions, towards Europe, c.1100 AD, coincide with the immigration, into Europe, of Romani ("Gypsy") people:
Click the image to open in full size.
Cp. the Caliphs called Anatolia 'Rum', after the Romans, who, with their Greek (Byzantine) successors, had long reigned in the region. And, from c.1100-1300 AD, the Seljuks in 'Rum' conquered crucial ports, on both the Black Sea & Mediterranean; and constructed caravanserai compounds along the Silk Road "which facilitated the flow of goods from Iran and Central Asia to the ports". These flows of trade, towards Europe, from c.1100-1300 AD, coincide with the flows of Romani, towards Europe, from Pakistan (Sindh). Afterwards, the Ottomans became the preeminent power, amongst the Turks, in 'Rum'; and the Ottoman expansion, into Europe, from c.1300-1500 AD, coincides with the Romani expansion, into Europe.

Ipso facto, prima facie, the Romani ("Gypsy") people "traveled with Turkic trade", from Pakistan in the 11th century AD, to Europe in the 14th century AD.
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Old March 6th, 2012, 10:46 PM   #2
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No, they were not. They are low-cast Indians, expelled from India 1000 years ago and emigrated to Europe. They do take sometimes the local ethnicity, and when come to the Byzatian Empire, told the Emperor that they are Egyptian christians. This is the root of the name Gypsy.

They did trade, as well as other people, but they have never been traders. They were craftsmen, horse breeders, travelers and yes, thieves sometimes.
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Old March 6th, 2012, 10:52 PM   #3

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Gypsies are not Turkic people, they originate in India. Romani is name which is used in association with them only recently and comes from word "man" in their language. It have nothing to do with Romans.

In most of the languages they are called Cigoine/Cigani which up to my knowledge was name of one of their larger tribes.

English word Gipsy should come from word "Egypt" (people believed they came from Egypt).

As for their migration it is possible that they had spread in to Europe in the wake of migration of other more powerful people like Turks.
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Old March 7th, 2012, 12:15 AM   #4

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lol, no. I never heard of this. It is just funny that according to nationalist Turks, many non-Turkish or slightly-Turkic tribes and empires are counted as Turkic/Turkish but Gypsies ain't one of them
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Old March 7th, 2012, 02:42 AM   #5

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I guess everone else has already answered correctly.
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Old March 7th, 2012, 10:54 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
They did trade, as well as other people, but they have never been traders. They were craftsmen, horse breeders, travelers and yes, thieves sometimes.
To be politically correct, they did not exactly breeded the horses...
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Old March 7th, 2012, 11:20 AM   #7

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
To be politically correct, they did not exactly breeded the horses...
what did they politically do to the horse?
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Old March 7th, 2012, 01:17 PM   #8
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Politically - nothing Mostly used to steal them, which is economical action, I guess )
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Old March 7th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #9

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB View Post
No, they were not. They are low-cast Indians, expelled from India 1000 years ago and emigrated to Europe. They do take sometimes the local ethnicity, and when come to the Byzatian Empire, told the Emperor that they are Egyptian christians. This is the root of the name Gypsy.

They did trade, as well as other people, but they have never been traders. They were craftsmen, horse ["]breeders["], travelers and yes, thieves sometimes.
In the absence of any other knowledge, if Romani are known for being "entertainers"; and if they worked their way, from Pakistan, through Iran, across Turkey, and on into Europe, along Turkish trade routes, over the past thousand years; then perhaps Romani have always been "street performers", earning (or taking) livings along the Silk Roads, established in the 11th century AD, by the Seljuks, "exploiting (aggressively) a new economic niche" thereby established ?

from Etymonline.com:
Romany
"a gypsy, the Gypsy language," 1812, romani, fem. of romano (adj.) "Gypsy," from rom, the Gypsy word for "man, husband, male, Gypsy" (pl. roma), from Skt. domba-s "male member of a low caste of musicians."

Gypsy
also gipsy, c.1600, alteration of gypcian, a worn-down M.E. dialectal form of egypcien "Egyptian," from the supposed origin of these people. As an adjective, from 1620s. Cognate with Sp. Gitano and close in sense to Turkish and Arabic Kipti "gypsy," lit. "Coptic;" but in M.Fr. they were Bohémien , and in Sp. also Flamenco "from Flanders." "The gipsies seem doomed to be associated with countries with which they have nothing to do" [Weekley]. Zingari, the Italian and German name, is of unknown origin. Romany is from the people's own language, a plural adjective form of rom "man." Gipsy is the prefered spelling in England.

Gitano
"gypsy," 1834, from Sp. Gitano, from V.L. *Ægyptanus "Egyptian" (see Gypsy). The fem. is gitana. The French form of the feminine, gitane, was used as the name of a brand of cigarettes (1933) and has come to be used for French cigarettes generally.
The Italian & German designation, Zingari, derives from Cangar, the name of a modern mountain region, near Jalalabad, in Afghanistan & Pakistan; and the name, Czangar, of "a people who formerly lived near the Indus river". Perhaps they have been "entertainers, on the road, for a thousand years" ?
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Old March 7th, 2012, 11:04 PM   #10

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According to the documentary Gypsy Caravan - when the road bends, Romani have a proverb, "you cannot walk straight when the road bends"; a self-perception, "we never went to war, never occupied any country, and never harmed anyone"; and a memory, that "the one thing they’ve always had, however, is music, and plenty of it". Ipso facto, Romani are "road performers at heart". An origin, amongst the underclasses, of India, could account, for their incentive, in "running for the (Silk) Road".
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