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Old November 15th, 2012, 02:16 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Sargon of Akkad View Post
Now now, if you've got sources for your wild assertions, could you please present them? You talk about giving evidence all the time, so I'm sure it's pretty natural for you to give some for this or you'd look ludicrous to the Nth degree. Period.



You are literally stating that Europeans had a deliberate policy to wipe out everyone else on Earth.

I mean actually, literally saying this. There is no nation on Earth that wasn't confronted with European colonialism. You feel that colonialism, definition "the control or governing influence of a nation over a dependent country, territory, or people" can be appropriately replaced with genocide, definition "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group", with no loss of information in the sentence.

Naturally, I'm not actually expecting you to defend something this childish, but it would be nice if you could actually get a bit of perspective and context on historical events that you are clearly overly-emotionally responsive to.
What a pitiful pathetic fallacious straw man.

Exactly the kind of fallacy that is regularly considered the ultimate resource of deep ignorance.

Sadly (for you) the real stuff is available for anyone here to read on their own.


PS: Oooops; sorry for not having ignored you here; my bad.

Last edited by sylla1; November 15th, 2012 at 02:21 AM.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 02:25 AM   #132

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I do not mean to be an ultra-Patriot, but America clearly was the kindest imperial power. Our treatment of the Filipinos during the Insurrection was horrendous, but besides that, we actually did a really good job. The fact is, besides the Philippines and the Panama Canal Zone, we've kept every major imperial possession. Alaska and Hawaii have become states, Puerto Rico just voted to, and there are no serious independence movements in the Virgin Islands or any of our Pacific island possessions. While some of our Pacific islands became independent, they opted to maintain extremely close military and economic ties with America.

We certainly did steal some land for colonists in these places, but for the most part this was minimal. Hawaii was the one exception, but even there, it was nothing like what the British did in Kenya or the Belgians in the Congo.

The darkest aspect of American imperialism was the racism involved with it. More than anything, we gave away the Philippines because we did not want to have so many Asians in our country. This was true with our earlier possession of Liberia (we were acquiring land to get rid of Blacks), but the hatred of Filipinos reached such an absurd level of acceptance among the public. If only we had been a more accepting people, both Americans and the Filipinos would have been better as a single nation.
I agree with all that you stated.

The Philippines was a nation that was so backward in all aspects of life before the arrival of the Americans in the country. The Filipino diet was consist of salty fish, rice and vegetable so the average male Filipino was only about 5'3" to 5'5" in height, whereas when the we were taught about the right diet by the Americans, the Filipinos got taller with the average height of 5'5" to 5'7" and that is attributable to giving lessons in the public schools and community based programs about healthy diet. Most recently the younger generations are getting taller because of high protein diet.

In terms of laws, the Filipinos experienced democracy and the power of the rule of law over the people wherein civil courts were installed and the usual inquisitorial system that was introduced by the Spaniards were changed into adversarial system which is still being implemented in the nation. Roads were constructed and American cars run the highways. Railways, better ports and airports were likewise constructed. Radio stations were also installed thus the Filipinos started to appreciate American music and Manila and other major cities in the country became party cities where the affluent and common people would dance in clubs and orchestras play their songs.

The people were free to create a religion of their own choice and so the Aglipayan Church which is almost like a Catholic Church was founded only that it has no alliance with the Vatican and other protestant churches were also founded.

On the desire of the Filipinos to obtain our liberty, the Philippine President of the Commonwealth Government, Manuel L. Quezon, said that, "I would rather have a country run like hell by Filipinos than a country run like heaven by the Americans, so here we go
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Old November 15th, 2012, 02:37 AM   #133

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The Philippines being a former colony of Spain, which is a European nation experienced abuses from their colonizers for sure, and that is one of the reasons why there were rebellions against them. However, it was not all about sacrifices because when the Spaniards arrive, the caste system and slavery in the nation which was practiced by the natives were abolished on the ground that all men are equal before the eyes of God, being a Christian virtue.

Such experience is the reason why "Sinulog Festival" in the City of Cebu, Philippines is annually celebrated as a memory of arrival of Ferdinand Magellan who gave the gift to Raja Humabon the image of Sto. Niņo. In the Philippines fiesta of the Patron Saint of every city, municipality and barangay (village) are celebrated as Catholic tradition with lots of festivities and of course drinking spree, and that is due to Spanish influence in the country, which the Filipinos embrace as their own. I don't find anything wrong with colonialism.

My nation is just lucky that we did not suffer from slavery from the Spaniards and the Americans of course.

For sure, the Japanese invasion was the epitome of what it means to be terrorized.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 05:43 AM   #134

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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
What a pitiful pathetic fallacious straw man.

Exactly the kind of fallacy that is regularly considered the ultimate resource of deep ignorance.

Sadly (for you) the real stuff is available for anyone here to read on their own.


PS: Oooops; sorry for not having ignored you here; my bad.
Debating, lesson 1: If you make an assertion, the onus is on you to provide evidence to support it.

I am waiting.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 01:11 PM   #135
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Yeh, think the UK and US were lower key about things and not as blatently exploitative and oppressive. The British used traditional rulers in places like India and sometimes allowed elected parliments. The US has hung on to most of what empire it had, but it was more noted for influence in Latin America and later throughout the world rather than direct colonial rule.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 01:46 PM   #136
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Surely it should be established whether we are talking about colonies as a whole, or about the indigenous population in the territories?

Can I ask why people actually hold this discussion with sylla? It's obvious he isn't actually going to respond to requests for evidence, clarification or even discussion. It's just as important to ignore ad-hominem arguments as it is to not use them.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 01:54 PM   #137

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Originally Posted by Koko the Monkey View Post
I do not mean to be an ultra-Patriot, but America clearly was the kindest imperial power. Our treatment of the Filipinos during the Insurrection was horrendous, but besides that, we actually did a really good job.
* Cough* Native Americans *Cough*
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Old November 16th, 2012, 02:03 PM   #138

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Italy, by virtue of not keeping its colonies for very long...
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Old November 16th, 2012, 02:12 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Tubby McChubbles View Post
Surely it should be established whether we are talking about colonies as a whole, or about the indigenous population in the territories?

Can I ask why people actually hold this discussion with sylla? It's obvious he isn't actually going to respond to requests for evidence, clarification or even discussion. It's just as important to ignore ad-hominem arguments as it is to not use them.
Welcome to Historum, Tubby.
(If you are not any former poster in disguise, of course)

All evidence of Sylla1 is already there for anyone to share, as you or anyone else could easily verify.

Given that you are clearly not familiar with the concept of ad hominem, guess you may not be aware that what you are attempting here is a cheap blatant fallacious straw man.

Not that such "ignorance" would be any justification either, of course.

Hope that aside from cheap fallacies you may be eventually able sometime to preach with your own example and share some relevant hard evidence with us.

If you don't know how, just read some of my posts.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 02:34 PM   #140

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Considering that you would have to search far and wide for any contemporary native (except for some few ruling blackmailed elites in a few cases) that would describe the colonialisation as a positive thing, this discussion seems to be a bit pointless and on the apologetic side (regardless of whatever results of thriving nations it may have created, as it was not the OTs question). It was a bad thing for them, whether it resulted in slave labour or genocide. The natives were viewed as creatures ranging between complete animals and complete humans at best.

Judging from the answers it did provide some interesting historical discussion, but there is no getting around that it is mainly after rationalisation, and the scale to be used judging from a native view is ranging from Bad to Extraordinaly Awful.
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