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Old November 16th, 2012, 04:54 PM   #151
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Click the image to open in full size.

Same Human Development Index for 2011, with some more detail.

Green is the best, then yellow, orange, red, black in descending order.

Source:
List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

These are the 46 worst scores ("Low Human Development" countries) from this same source:

142 Solomon Islands (Br)
143 Kenya (Br)
144 São Tomé and Príncipe (Po)
145 Pakistan (Br)
146 Bangladesh (Br)
147 Timor-Leste (Po)
148 Angola (Po)
149 Burma (Br)
150 Cameroon (Ge / Fr)
151 Madagascar (Fr)
152 Tanzania (Ge / Br)
153 Papua New Guinea (Br)
154 Yemen (Br)
155 Senegal (Fr)
156 Nigeria (Br)
157 Nepal (Br)
158 Haiti (Fr)
159 Mauritania (Fr)
160 Lesotho (Br)
161 Uganda (Br)
162 Togo (Ge / Fr)
163 Comoros (Fr)
164 Zambia (Br)
165 Djibouti (Fr)
166 Rwanda (Ge / Be)
167 Benin (Fr)
168 Gambia (Br)
169 Sudan (Br)
170 Côte d'Ivoire (Fr)
171 Malawi (Br)
172 Afghanistan (Br)
173 Zimbabwe (Br)
174 Ethiopia (It)
175 Mali (Fr)
176 Guinea-Bissau (Po)
177 Eritrea (It)
178 Guinea (Fr)
179 Central African Republic (Fr)
180 Sierra Leone (Br)
181 Burkina Faso (Fr)
182 Liberia (US)
183 Chad (Fr)
184 Mozambique (Po)
185 Burundi (Ge / Be)
186 Niger (Fr)
187 Democratic Republic of the Congo (Be)

All of them are former European colonies except Liberia (a former de facto US protectorate) and Ethiopia (an Italian colony just for five years)

These 44 former European colonies include:
19 former British colonies (Br),
16 formerly French (Fr),
5 formerly Portuguese (Po),
3 formerly Belgian (Be) and
1 formerly Italian (It).
(Germany was the initial conqueror of five of these former colonies)

Additionally out of the count ("Data unavailable" in grey)
Western Sahara (formerly Spanish)
South Sudan (formerly British) and
Somalia (formerly Italian & British)
... are ostensibly in even worse conditions.

Most of these nations are in Africa, except 7 in Asia, 2 in Oceania, & 1 in the Caribbean.


This is the relevant primary source of this nice Wiki-article http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2011_EN_Tables.pdf

Last edited by sylla1; November 16th, 2012 at 05:56 PM.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 05:49 PM   #152
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BTW, was anyone asking for any evidence?
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Originally Posted by Tubby McChubbles View Post
Surely it should be established whether we are talking about colonies as a whole, or about the indigenous population in the territories?

Can I ask why people actually hold this discussion with sylla? It's obvious he isn't actually going to respond to requests for evidence, clarification or even discussion. It's just as important to ignore ad-hominem arguments as it is to not use them.
Oooh, yes; now I remember.


BTW, on average and at strict face value, the former US & Dutch colonies would be by far the most successful (i.e. "benevolent") former colonial empires under this (IMHO over-simplistic as rightly pointed out by our Apophaticlogos) working hypothesis (just Philippines & Indonesia, respectively placed in the 112th & 124th positions of the aforementioned 2011 HDI list)

Under the same hypothesis Japan would ostensibly have been an even exponentially better colonial master (South Korea is in the 5th position, Taiwan was not included in the list but its measure would place it in the 22th position) but North Korea currently has no available data; for comparison purposes, it ranked in the 75th position for 1998.

Last edited by sylla1; November 16th, 2012 at 06:26 PM.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 06:45 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by dagul View Post
The Philippines being a former colony of Spain, which is a European nation experienced abuses from their colonizers for sure, and that is one of the reasons why there were rebellions against them. However, it was not all about sacrifices because when the Spaniards arrive, the caste system and slavery in the nation which was practiced by the natives were abolished on the ground that all men are equal before the eyes of God, being a Christian virtue.

Such experience is the reason why "Sinulog Festival" in the City of Cebu, Philippines is annually celebrated as a memory of arrival of Ferdinand Magellan who gave the gift to Raja Humabon the image of Sto. Niño. In the Philippines fiesta of the Patron Saint of every city, municipality and barangay (village) are celebrated as Catholic tradition with lots of festivities and of course drinking spree, and that is due to Spanish influence in the country, which the Filipinos embrace as their own. I don't find anything wrong with colonialism.

My nation is just lucky that we did not suffer from slavery from the Spaniards and the Americans of course.

For sure, the Japanese invasion was the epitome of what it means to be terrorized.
And if there were no european colonialists, malaysia, indonesia, and the philippines would be dozens of muslim sultanates in a vast cultural continuum with old malay as the lingua franca and islam as a common religion.

The malacca sultanate was not a bad place to be in for non muslims compared to the spanish ruled phillipines for non catholics. There were dozens of rebellions by chinese in the philippines and suppresion and massacres by the spanish, none of this happened to chinese in moroland or malacca.

Most modern problems chinese have in malaysia and indonesia stemmed from european colonial rule. The Dutch initiated the first massacre of chinese in indonesia in 1740, after which both chinese and javanese fought them in the java war which started when chinese began revenge killings against Dutch colonists.

There was never any problem between malays and Peranakan chinese in the malacca sultanate, or with chinese and moros.

You do know that the spanish manila acapulco galleons sold filipino slaves to mexico?

Dark side of galleon trade | The Manila Bulletin Newspaper Online

Filipino slaves on the galleons | The Manila Bulletin Newspaper Online

Corridors of Migration: The Odyssey of Mexican Laborers, 1600--1933 - Rodolfo F. Acuna - Google Books

The Manila-Acapulco Galleons: The Treasure Ships of the Pacific With an ... - Shirley Fish - Google Books

Manila Men in the New World: Filipino Migration to Mexico and the Americas ... - Floro L. Mercene - Google Books

The Slave Trade: The Story of the Atlantic Slave Trade: 1440 - 1870 - Hugh Thomas - Google Books
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Old November 16th, 2012, 10:05 PM   #154

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If this list is intended (by malicious interpretation) to show the relative advantage or otherwise of being born in a land once, but no longer, blessed with the honour of being part of the Great Imperial Family it is noteworthy that of the top 19 countries outside of Europe, 13 were former British colonies or territories. Clearly some people are capable of being potty trained and others continue to make a mess once the Memsahib has returned home.

Last edited by Ancientgeezer; November 16th, 2012 at 10:41 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old November 16th, 2012, 11:17 PM   #155

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancientgeezer View Post
If this list is intended (by malicious interpretation) to show the relative advantage or otherwise of being born in a land once, but no longer, blessed with the honour of being part of the Great Imperial Family it is noteworthy that of the top 19 countries outside of Europe, 13 were former British colonies or territories. Clearly some people are capable of being potty trained and others continue to make a mess once the Memsahib has returned home.
First of all, you HAVE to distinguish between first wave colonialism and second wave colonialism since the two were about as different as the Achaemenid Persian conquest of Egypt and the Nazi conquest of Poland. (completely different objectives and policies). How many of the top 20 countries are from second wave colonialism?

Secondly, if you are speaking satirically, I bow to a subtler mind than mine. But if you are not, I`m sure you can find a less offensive and bigoted way of expressing your thought.

Last edited by apophaticlogos; November 17th, 2012 at 12:00 AM.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 12:22 AM   #156

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Originally Posted by apophaticlogos View Post
First of all, you HAVE to distinguish between first wave colonialism and second wave colonialism since the two were about as different as the Achaemenid Persian conquest of Egypt and the Nazi conquest of Poland. (completely different objectives and policies). How many of the top 20 countries are from second wave colonialism?

Secondly, if you are speaking satirically, I bow to a more subtle mind than mind. But if you are not, I`m sure you can find a less offensive and bigoted way of expressing your thought.
Where is the cut-off point of "first and second wave" colonialism? Something arbritarily arrived at to prove a pre-conception? As far as Anglo-Saxon Empires are concerned there are five distinct phases, extended to eight if one regards American expansion as an extension of the earlier British acitivity.
If one assumes that the "cut off" is 1776, then of those twenty eleven came under British rule only after that date.

Your libel in calling me a bigot is noted. If you have a dictionary you may wish to look up the word. Amongst its meanings as used by non-British people is a "person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"
This perfectly descibes the small, but noisy community of anti-British, Anti-Anglo-Saxon, anti-White losers who post here regularly.
As for me personally, hatred and intolerance are for the lower classes. Does one hate the waste paper basket? Does one hate the furniture? Of course not.
Does one have a responsibility to correct a child? Of course! Unfortunately, like adolescents full of their own self-importance, many of Empire's children decided that they knew how to drive the car before they had even been in it--with predictable results.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 12:43 AM   #157

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It`s my understanding that the end of first the first major phase of colonialism can be considered the success of the Haitian Revolution (perhaps as early as the Seven Years War would be a fine date as well). I think its fairly easy to date the second great phase as starting from the French conquest of Algeria.

If we can limit ourselves to the second phase (as I was discussing in my post),you`re welcome to make your point again.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 12:45 AM   #158

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Quote:
Originally Posted by deke View Post
And if there were no european colonialists, malaysia, indonesia, and the philippines would be dozens of muslim sultanates in a vast cultural continuum with old malay as the lingua franca and islam as a common religion.

The malacca sultanate was not a bad place to be in for non muslims compared to the spanish ruled phillipines for non catholics. There were dozens of rebellions by chinese in the philippines and suppresion and massacres by the spanish, none of this happened to chinese in moroland or malacca.

Most modern problems chinese have in malaysia and indonesia stemmed from european colonial rule. The Dutch initiated the first massacre of chinese in indonesia in 1740, after which both chinese and javanese fought them in the java war which started when chinese began revenge killings against Dutch colonists.

There was never any problem between malays and Peranakan chinese in the malacca sultanate, or with chinese and moros.

You do know that the spanish manila acapulco galleons sold filipino slaves to mexico?

Dark side of galleon trade | The Manila Bulletin Newspaper Online

Filipino slaves on the galleons | The Manila Bulletin Newspaper Online

Corridors of Migration: The Odyssey of Mexican Laborers, 1600--1933 - Rodolfo F. Acuna - Google Books

The Manila-Acapulco Galleons: The Treasure Ships of the Pacific With an ... - Shirley Fish - Google Books

Manila Men in the New World: Filipino Migration to Mexico and the Americas ... - Floro L. Mercene - Google Books

The Slave Trade: The Story of the Atlantic Slave Trade: 1440 - 1870 - Hugh Thomas - Google Books
Your own link provides that there was an order from Spanish King that Filipinos should not be enslaved. In those links that you provided, it also shows that a certain Filipina slave became a nun. Ever heard of a Black African who work in the cotton farm in the U.S. that became a Catholic nun? Such example that you gave, is not slavery in the true sense of the word because to become a nun and a servant of the church is a choice, and a real slave is a commodity of ones owner and cannot exercise the right to choose of what to become someday.

Like you, in my country there are revisionists historians that create stories that those who built the Catholic Churches in my country were slaves, which runs in contrast to the the inscriptions in the stones that bear their name and their devotion to Jesus.

It is true that in the Philippines there were Chinese uprising against the Spaniards but, these people were considered as bandits in the early history of the nation. While it is correct that Filipinos rebelled against the Spaniards, because they suffered from abuses of these colonizers, however, the experience was not all about pain but also it was the love of religion, family relationships, festivals, and the awakening of learning the Western education in the Philippines, and as a matter of fact, University of Sto. Tomas which was founded in April 28, 1611 in the City of Manila, is amongst the oldest in Asia.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 03:37 AM   #159

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancientgeezer View Post
If this list is intended (by malicious interpretation) to show the relative advantage or otherwise of being born in a land once, but no longer, blessed with the honour of being part of the Great Imperial Family it is noteworthy that of the top 19 countries outside of Europe, 13 were former British colonies or territories. Clearly some people are capable of being potty trained and others continue to make a mess once the Memsahib has returned home.
And many top bottom countries were British colony, therefore there is no merit for British but to the people of those colonies.
I would be curious even to know what civilization you spread: British cooking? Hell no, for the God's sake.
British way of ruling? Quite ineffective seeing Sierra Leone but it mainly depends on where the colony is.
British "civilization"? And what would that be? English houses? Hell no.
English bathroom? Without a bidet? Jesus no.
English language? That's already better since it is overwhelmingly simpler than German or Russian or whatsoever other languages and it is quite a nice language, even considering its defects.
English civilization is not superior in any thing to other European countries, in anything.
I don't hate England, I have been staying there for a while and I enjoyed people and my sojourn, I like your language and I like your history.
Yet constantly hearing from you and others how good was British civilization and rule for other peoples somewhat irritate s others.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 05:24 AM   #160

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Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
And many top bottom countries were British colony, therefore there is no merit for British but to the people of those colonies.
I would be curious even to know what civilization you spread: British cooking? Hell no, for the God's sake.
...
...
...
Although there aren't many defenders of colonialism, I don't think there can be a lot of debate that the Europeans left their colonies in better shape in 1960 than they found them in 1860. They had built infrastructure - road, schools, hospitals, bureaucracy; given their colonies education - philosophy and Christian religion; linked them into the home countries social and economic world (see here for a fascinating graphic on facebook social connections between some former colonizers and the rest of the world Daily chart: The sun never sets | The Economist).

The colonizers definitely left their colonies better a hundred years later - though surely they didn't leave them a hundred years better, and that says nothing about native suffering or comfort in the meantime.
Demonizing a transgressor does nothing to right an injustice, and it only discredits your standpoint.


On another note, I have to say, I thought this looked like an interested place to have serious historical discussions, but given the level of petty pebble tossing I see, I'm about to head back to the Europa Universalis forums... at least on a computer game site there is real historical analysis.
It's been fun; and if Ancientgeezer will lend me his dictionary, I will find the loosest definition of 'fun' that I can.
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