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Old November 17th, 2012, 01:36 PM   #171

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Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
If you look at Cameroon and Somalia, just have a look at the formerly British and formerly non-British parts and see the shocking difference in development.
What about sudan and lybia (one of the most developed african countries)?

I think that making simple comparisons can lead to wrong considerations, and that the current state of ex-colonies has more to do with their postcolonial period
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Old November 17th, 2012, 01:46 PM   #172
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If you look at Cameroon and Somalia, just have a look at the formerly British and formerly non-British parts and see the shocking difference in development.
Interesting cherry-picking; have you any hard evidence to back such "shocking" claims on both specific examples?

Would you be so kind to share it with us here?
Thanks in advance.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 03:06 PM   #173

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Wow, really? Isn't that against forum rules or something?
Probably not. But I suspect the public revelation of such an ideological attitude is in itself quite embarrassing in its own way.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 03:27 PM   #174

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For colonialism to even slightly benefit people , it has to bring new things which the people don't have already

Philippines had indigenous writing

A visit to the Philippine Islands - John Bowring - Google Books

Chinese pottery in the Philippines - Fay-Cooper Cole, Berthold Laufer - Google Books

Religion (islam and hinduism/animism)

Indigenous states (kingdom of luzon, kingdom of maynila and sultanates).

The malay states already had gunpowder weapons and cannons so the spanish didn't introduce them there. There was a fully developed trade system between the philippines, japan, china, and the malay sultanates.

There were many indigenous schools run by the moros in mindanao and sulu. When non spaniards like Dr. Najeeb Saleeby who was an arab christian studied the moros, they had a positive view and said that the juramentados were not religious fanatics at all. He also wrote positively of their education system.

All western accounts about chinese rebellions in the philippines are pretty clear that they were due to spanish oppression and that the spanish committed massacres of thousands of people. This is a 19th fentury western account, even back then they were acknowleding whose fault it was. I can post links to modern scholar's writings on the massacres if you want to see them.

A system of universal geography: or A description of all the parts of the ... - Conrad Malte-Brun, Jean-Jacques-Nicolas Huot - Google Books

When the dutch showed up in spanish taiwan, the aboriginals immediately defected to the newcomers

How Taiwan Became Chinese: Chapter 5

Spanish Experience in Taiwan 1626-1642: The Baroque Ending of a Renaissance ... - Josť Eugenio Borao Mateo - Google Books
I never deny the fact of Spanish oppression in the Philippines and that indeed there was this existing civilization in the nation before the colonization, and caste system was a way of life that includes institutionalized practice of slavery by indigenous tribes and pockets of kingdoms in the archipelago. These inhuman practices were however abolished by the Spaniards as they introduced Christianity in the land where people were taught that all are equal before the eyes of God and such was the reason of declaring them as illegal acts.

I also agree with you of the introduction of pottery by Chinese in the nation as barter system was the ancient mode of trading then.

If you will look at the territories in the Philippines which became modernized, they were the areas that were under the colonial rule.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 03:42 PM   #175
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If you will look at the territories in the Philippines which became modernized, they were the areas that were under the colonial rule.
As absolutely all 100% Philippines were under colonial rule, there's no way you may fail, right?

However, my guess is that the less advanced territories of Philippines were under colonial rule too, right?
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Old November 17th, 2012, 04:15 PM   #176

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As absolutely all 100% Philippines were under colonial rule, there's no way you may fail, right?

However, my guess is that the less advanced territories of Philippines were under colonial rule too, right?
When I say colonial rule, I am referring to the territories that were under the Spanish influence because there were areas in the country that were not subdued by them like the Islamic Mindano and the Sultanate of Sulo and the Ifugaos and Mangyans. Although, they were all occupied by the U.S. during the time that the Philippines became its colony.

It must be noted that Catholicism was the official religion of the Spanish Colonial Government, and these areas which they failed to occupy was able to maintain their culture, like the Sultanate of Sulo, remained as Muslims and it is amongst the territories in the Philippines wherein slavery was widely practiced until they were colonized by the Americans because of the tenacity of General Black Jack Pershing and his Rough Riders. During the Spanish colonial rule however, Moro raids were prevalent and the Christians who were taken from the villages near the shorelines were made as their slaves and the women were raped. Such backward culture and brutality is a manifestation of the less advance civilization in contrast to the territories where the people learned about civility and respect to human life.

In the hinterlands of the Ifugaos and Igorots in the Mountain Province in Central Luzon, Philippines, head hunting was a way of life where the people kill another human, cut their head and eat their brains too. These territories were not occupied by the Spaniards and so they're able to maintain the ancient culture and traditional religion that is anchored on animism. That practice of killing people as part of their tradition is a manifestation of backward culture and failure to observe civility and respect over the human life. These territories however were occupied by the Americans and Baguio City was developed as American settlement because of cold weather year round.

Those areas in the Philippines that became Spanish settlements are the most advanced cities like Manila and Cebu. Those where the areas wherein schools and universities were run by nuns and priests are the places that became advance in terms of civilization where people were taught about respect to human life and practices like head hunting is being declared as a crime.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 04:30 PM   #177
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When I say colonial rule, I am referring to the territories that were under the Spanish influence because there were areas in the country that were not subdued by them like the Islamic Mindano and the Sultanate of Sulo and the Ifugaos and Mangyans. Although, they were all occupied by the U.S. during the time that the Philippines became its colony.

It must be noted that Catholicism was the official religion of the Spanish Colonial Government, and these areas which they failed to occupy was able to maintain their culture, like the Sultanate of Sulo, remained as Muslims and it is amongst the territories in the Philippines wherein slavery was widely practiced until they were colonized by the Americans because of the tenacity of General Black Jack Pershing and his Rough Riders. During the Spanish colonial rule however, Moro raids were prevalent and the Christians who were taken from the villages near the shorelines were made as their slaves and the women were raped. Such backward culture and brutality is a manifestation of the less advance civilization in contrast to the territories where the people learned about civility and respect to human life.

In the hinterlands of the Ifugaos and Igorots in the Mountain Province in Central Luzon, Philippines, head hunting was a way of life where the people kill another human, cut their head and eat their brains too. These territories were not occupied by the Spaniards and so they're able to maintain the ancient culture and traditional religion that is anchored on animism. That practice of killing people as part of their tradition is a manifestation of backward culture and failure to observe civility and respect over the human life. These territories however were occupied by the Americans and Baguio City was developed as American settlement because of cold weather year round.

Those areas in the Philippines that became Spanish settlements are the most advanced cities like Manila and Cebu. Those where the areas wherein schools and universities were run by nuns and priests are the places that became advance in terms of civilization where people were taught about respect to human life and practices like head hunting is being declared as a crime.
You can't ignore that the Sultanate of Sulu became a de facto Spanish protectorate in 1851, and that it was formally annexed by the US in 1917, right?

Not to mention that it was just a minuscule portion of modern Philippines:

Click the image to open in full size.

Your comparison here could hardly be any more biased.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #178

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Of course, it is a small territory, but you can't hardly call it as protectorate of Spain because its colonial government in the country was in constant war with the Sultanate of Sulo. Such is the reason why the Catholic Churches are made like forts because they're the place where the Christian Filipinos shall hide during Moro raids and my great great grandfather called as "Teban" having been baptized with Catholic name as Esteban, was legendary in my mothers place being the one who fought with the Moro raiders in the coast line killing lots of them way back in the late 1800's. Just take a look at that, as of 1600's the areas which were occupied by the Spaniards, some of the Filipinos go to school and learned about civilization in those institutions and some of them were lucky to enroll in the universities, while these areas which were not under the colonial rule were still into slavery and head hunting. Now tell me if there is anything civil in that.

That lack of respect to human life over these territories that were not in control of the Spaniards is considered to be backward in terms of advancement of civilization and there is nothing biased in that.

It is true that those areas were part of the territories that was sold by the Spaniards to the Americans by virtue of the treaty of Paris, but, it is what the Spanish claimed as theirs even if they failed to impose Christianity on them, and such is still an issue in the Philippines right now as war between Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF, can you see the mirth in the acronym?), the Abu Sayaf against the Philippine Government is still going on.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 04:50 PM   #179
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Of course, it is a small territory, but you can't hardly call it as protectorate of Spain because its colonial government in the country was in constant war with the Sultanate of Sulo. Such is the reason why the Catholic Churches are made like forts because they're the place where the Christian Filipinos shall hide during Moro raids and my great great grandfather called as "Teban" having been baptized with Catholic name as Esteban, was legendary in my mothers place being the one who fought with the Moro raiders in the coast line killing lots of them way back in the late 1800's. Just take a look at that, as of 1600's the areas which were occupied by the Spaniards, some of the Filipinos go to school and learned about civilization in those institutions and some of them were lucky to enroll in the universities, while these areas which were not under the colonial rule were still into slavery and head hunting. Now tell me if there is anything civil in that.

That lack of respect to human life over these territories that were not in control of the Spaniards is considered to be backward in terms of advancement of civilization and there is nothing biased in that.

It is true that those areas were part of the territories that was sold by the Spaniards to the Americans by virtue of the treaty of Paris, but, it is what the Spanish claimed as theirs even if they failed to impose Christianity on them, and such is still an issue in the Philippines right now as war between Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF, can you see the mirth in the acronym?), the Abu Sayaf against the Philippine Government is still going on.
Again, pretending to use this territory as any control for the effect of any colonialism over the Philippines (the only relevant point for the OP) coudln't be any more biased.

It was as colonial as any other Western protectorate of the time, let say Lesotho or Bhutan.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #180
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Of course, it is a small territory, but you can't hardly call it as protectorate of Spain because its colonial government in the country was in constant war with the Sultanate of Sulo. Such is the reason why the Catholic Churches are made like forts because they're the place where the Christian Filipinos shall hide during Moro raids and my great great grandfather called as "Teban" having been baptized with Catholic name as Esteban, was legendary in my mothers place being the one who fought with the Moro raiders in the coast line killing lots of them way back in the late 1800's. Just take a look at that, as of 1600's the areas which were occupied by the Spaniards, some of the Filipinos go to school and learned about civilization in those institutions and some of them were lucky to enroll in the universities, while these areas which were not under the colonial rule were still into slavery and head hunting. Now tell me if there is anything civil in that.

That lack of respect to human life over these territories that were not in control of the Spaniards is considered to be backward in terms of advancement of civilization and there is nothing biased in that.

It is true that those areas were part of the territories that was sold by the Spaniards to the Americans by virtue of the treaty of Paris, but, it is what the Spanish claimed as theirs even if they failed to impose Christianity on them, and such is still an issue in the Philippines right now as war between Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF, can you see the mirth in the acronym?), the Abu Sayaf against the Philippine Government is still going on.
Again, pretending to use this territory as any control for the effect of any colonialism over the Philippines (the only relevant point for the OP) couldn't be any more biased.

It was as colonial as any other Western protectorate of the time, let say Lesotho, Cambodia or Bhutan.

Or any of the 565 puppet "princely states" of the Raj, for that matter.
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