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Old November 18th, 2012, 03:29 AM   #201

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Doctor, cure yourself.

BTW, yup, another textbook example.

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Clearly I win this round. I shall return after Church, I must give thanks to the god who made me an Englishman.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 03:34 AM   #202
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Clearly I win this round. I shall return after Church, I must give thanks to the god who made me an Englishman.
And just not to derail this nice thread any more, any other question on any European Colonial Power?

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Old November 18th, 2012, 03:44 AM   #203

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The Economist highlighted the failings well here International rankings: Wrong numbers | The Economist
The criticisms of the Economist were based on research into the OLD, pre-2010, method of calculating the Human Development Index - not the current version!
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Old November 18th, 2012, 08:38 AM   #204
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When I say colonial rule, I am referring to the territories that were under the Spanish influence because there were areas in the country that were not subdued by them like the Islamic Mindano and the Sultanate of Sulo and the Ifugaos and Mangyans. Although, they were all occupied by the U.S. during the time that the Philippines became its colony.

It must be noted that Catholicism was the official religion of the Spanish Colonial Government, and these areas which they failed to occupy was able to maintain their culture, like the Sultanate of Sulo, remained as Muslims and it is amongst the territories in the Philippines wherein slavery was widely practiced until they were colonized by the Americans because of the tenacity of General Black Jack Pershing and his Rough Riders. During the Spanish colonial rule however, Moro raids were prevalent and the Christians who were taken from the villages near the shorelines were made as their slaves and the women were raped. Such backward culture and brutality is a manifestation of the less advance civilization in contrast to the territories where the people learned about civility and respect to human life.

In the hinterlands of the Ifugaos and Igorots in the Mountain Province in Central Luzon, Philippines, head hunting was a way of life where the people kill another human, cut their head and eat their brains too. These territories were not occupied by the Spaniards and so they're able to maintain the ancient culture and traditional religion that is anchored on animism. That practice of killing people as part of their tradition is a manifestation of backward culture and failure to observe civility and respect over the human life. These territories however were occupied by the Americans and Baguio City was developed as American settlement because of cold weather year round.

Those areas in the Philippines that became Spanish settlements are the most advanced cities like Manila and Cebu. Those where the areas wherein schools and universities were run by nuns and priests are the places that became advance in terms of civilization where people were taught about respect to human life and practices like head hunting is being declared as a crime.
Dagul- its illegal under islamic law to enslave other muslims. Therefore, if all filipinos were muslims, there would be no slave raids. So if the spanish left the philippines alone and the kingdom of manila and other muslim states developed there would be no slave raids by sulu because all filipinos would be muslim.

Muslims also don't do headhunting so that would have been phased out too. Cannibalism and caste system are also forbidden in islam.

The same logic went for catholocism. The catholic church said it was legal to enslave infidels, but not catholics. Thats why spain enslaved blacks and indians and others who weren't catholic. I can use the opposite logic and say if the spanish forcibly converted the moros to catholocism, they would never take the moros as slaves- you see where this pointless "the spanish abolished slavery" argument is going?

In both islamic and catholic law you can't enslave your own but you can enslave others. So if all filipinos were muslim, there would be no slaves, no caste system, no head hunting or eating peoples brains.

As for the slave raids, don't you know that the spanish started the wars agaisnt the moros first? Weren't the spanish trying to conquer mindanao and sulu for over 300 years and attacking them repeatedly? Are you trying to tell me no spanish soldier ever raped anybody?

Non muslim chinese traded and lived in sulu and mindanao without any problem, or being raped and enslaved. Therefore the problem was that the spanish philippines was in a perpetual war with the moros, trying to conquer the sultanates and the slave raids were retaliatory.

There were also non muslim chinese shipping guns to the sultunate of sulu to help them defend against the Spanish.

The Sulu Zone: 1768-1898 - James Francis Warren - Google Books

The Sulu Zone: 1768-1898 - James Francis Warren - Google Books

The Sulu Zone: 1768-1898 - James Francis Warren - Google Books

As to you saying the spanish abolished human sacrifice in mexico, you do know that the spanish and portuguese both exported the inquisition to their colonies, and that europeans executed thousands of women for being witches? They also used torture methods like drawing and quartering, the wheel, and various other methods of torture and execution for petty crimes, blasphemy, and like I mentioned, women accused of being witches.

I don't see how medieval europe was different from the aztec empire in terms of brutality.

Last edited by deke; November 18th, 2012 at 09:14 AM.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 10:57 AM   #205

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It all depends on which colony under which colonial power. Probably the "best" I would say is the British in Northern Nigeria, allowing a virtual status quo to remain from pre-colonial times with the exception of annual tribute to the British metropole. The worst I would say would probably be either the German colonies (herero Nama wars, kipande plantation system), the Portuguese system in Angola (brutal corvee labor), Congo Free State (obvious reasons) ,or the French colonies in west and central africa. The reason I'm excluding the belgian congo is because although they had as bad if not worse corvee labor than the other european powers, they provided some of the best health care (compared to other colonial powers) for their subjects.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 01:09 PM   #206
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This is like asking ''which patient of that asylum is the sanest''.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 02:54 PM   #207

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Dagul- its illegal under islamic law to enslave other muslims. Therefore, if all filipinos were muslims, there would be no slave raids. So if the spanish left the philippines alone and the kingdom of manila and other muslim states developed there would be no slave raids by sulu because all filipinos would be muslim.

Muslims also don't do headhunting so that would have been phased out too. Cannibalism and caste system are also forbidden in islam.

The same logic went for catholocism. The catholic church said it was legal to enslave infidels, but not catholics. Thats why spain enslaved blacks and indians and others who weren't catholic. I can use the opposite logic and say if the spanish forcibly converted the moros to catholocism, they would never take the moros as slaves- you see where this pointless "the spanish abolished slavery" argument is going?

In both islamic and catholic law you can't enslave your own but you can enslave others. So if all filipinos were muslim, there would be no slaves, no caste system, no head hunting or eating peoples brains.

As for the slave raids, don't you know that the spanish started the wars agaisnt the moros first? Weren't the spanish trying to conquer mindanao and sulu for over 300 years and attacking them repeatedly? Are you trying to tell me no spanish soldier ever raped anybody?

Non muslim chinese traded and lived in sulu and mindanao without any problem, or being raped and enslaved. Therefore the problem was that the spanish philippines was in a perpetual war with the moros, trying to conquer the sultanates and the slave raids were retaliatory.

There were also non muslim chinese shipping guns to the sultunate of sulu to help them defend against the Spanish.

The Sulu Zone: 1768-1898 - James Francis Warren - Google Books

The Sulu Zone: 1768-1898 - James Francis Warren - Google Books

The Sulu Zone: 1768-1898 - James Francis Warren - Google Books

As to you saying the spanish abolished human sacrifice in mexico, you do know that the spanish and portuguese both exported the inquisition to their colonies, and that europeans executed thousands of women for being witches? They also used torture methods like drawing and quartering, the wheel, and various other methods of torture and execution for petty crimes, blasphemy, and like I mentioned, women accused of being witches.

I don't see how medieval europe was different from the aztec empire in terms of brutality.
That system of the Sultanate of Sulo was so brutal and violent, because no Christian community in the Philippines would raid the Moros of the South to get them and enslave them. The Filipino communities under the Spanish rule were relatively peaceful in view of the fact that they were made to consider respect over another human in the life itself. Also, if the Philippines was left by Spain, then the Filipina women shall not have an equal rights with men in terms of marital rights. Monogamy is brought about by Spanish conquest in contrast to polygamy of the ancient Filipinos that deprives women over equality with men, and a society where a man and woman are not equal harbors certain forms of injustice to another person. There is no equality in regards to gender if that was the case, and so I highly marvel the Spanish conquest of the Philippines.

I never stated that the Mulims engaged in head hunting and cannibalism. They were the Igorots and Ifugaos of the Mountain Province in Luzon, and they were not Islamic but their faith is based on animism. These are amongst the territories where the people showcase the skulls of their victims and that was because the Spaniards failed to set foothold over their area, and so the principles about civility and respect to another human was not propagated in those places and they remained to be like that, as the Americans called them savages.

You are so wrong about the Catholic people in the Philippines, because as far as the Filipinos were concerned, no Muslim was made as their slaves. During wars, they rather kill them in the battles but no Moro was made as a slave by any of the Filipino Catholic. While it is true that the ancient Filipinos were converted to be Catholics, but, such created a better and more harmonious society in the Philippines. The people who believe that all men are equal before the eyes of God and to love Him and his fellowmen, and that is the reason why during the 1986 EDSA Revolution, which was designed to eject the dictator, Ferdinand Marcos, that event was peaceful because the Filipinos love God and their fellowmen. That is attributable to Christianity and that happened because of Spanish colonization of the Philippines, where the people knew their God, known as, Jesus. That is the reason why colonialism is not entirely about genocide and so on and so forth. Such world event in history of mankind is the reason why there were people who became much better with all hope in their heart about their better future, like us, the Filipinos. The same people who believe in peaceful process and respect about the rule of the law. The people who marvel democracy as the Americans taught us about what it takes to be ruled by the law under the democratic regime, and that is due to colonialism.

In your discussions about the Spanish conquest of Muslim Mindanao, I never said that the former did not commit any crime. In fact I am consistent in my posts that they were abusive over the ancient Filipinos. That they were known as lazy bigots. However, my point is the culture that they brought in the nation have more positive effect in contrast to the negativeness of them. They created the people of peace and respectful of others, in view of the Christian virtues on forgiveness, kindness and love.

I am certainly aware of the exportation of inquisition, the Philippines being a Spanish colony since the mid of 1500's, but, if you compare them to human sacrifice where a person is killed to be offered to some kind of god, then, the inquisition is million times better than that of killing another human as an offering.

I don't want to argue with you about your personal ideals about the Aztecs and the Medieval Europe, but for sure, the ideals about the enlightenment which created the laws regarding the respect to human life, justice to all the people, equality in gender, modern democracy and the rule of law are gift to mankind, and those principles reached my nation because of Spanish and American colonization and I don't see any wrongness about that.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 03:53 PM   #208
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That system of the Sultanate of Sulo was so brutal and violent, because no Christian community in the Philippines would raid the Moros of the South to get them and enslave them. The Filipino communities under the Spanish rule were relatively peaceful in view of the fact that they were made to consider respect over another human in the life itself. Also, if the Philippines was left by Spain, then the Filipina women shall not have an equal rights with men in terms of marital rights. Monogamy is brought about by Spanish conquest in contrast to polygamy of the ancient Filipinos that deprives women over equality with men, and a society where a man and woman are not equal harbors certain forms of injustice to another person. There is no equality in regards to gender if that was the case, and so I highly marvel the Spanish conquest of the Philippines.

I never stated that the Mulims engaged in head hunting and cannibalism. They were the Igorots and Ifugaos of the Mountain Province in Luzon, and they were not Islamic but their faith is based on animism. These are amongst the territories where the people showcase the skulls of their victims and that was because the Spaniards failed to set foothold over their area, and so the principles about civility and respect to another human was not propagated in those places and they remained to be like that, as the Americans called them savages.

You are so wrong about the Catholic people in the Philippines, because as far as the Filipinos were concerned, no Muslim was made as their slaves. During wars, they rather kill them in the battles but no Moro was made as a slave by any of the Filipino Catholic. While it is true that the ancient Filipinos were converted to be Catholics, but, such created a better and more harmonious society in the Philippines. The people who believe that all men are equal before the eyes of God and to love Him and his fellowmen, and that is the reason why during the 1986 EDSA Revolution, which was designed to eject the dictator, Ferdinand Marcos, that event was peaceful because the Filipinos love God and their fellowmen. That is attributable to Christianity and that happened because of Spanish colonization of the Philippines, where the people knew their God, known as, Jesus. That is the reason why colonialism is not entirely about genocide and so on and so forth. Such world event in history of mankind is the reason why there were people who became much better with all hope in their heart about their better future, like us, the Filipinos. The same people who believe in peaceful process and respect about the rule of the law. The people who marvel democracy as the Americans taught us about what it takes to be ruled by the law under the democratic regime, and that is due to colonialism.

In your discussions about the Spanish conquest of Muslim Mindanao, I never said that the former did not commit any crime. In fact I am consistent in my posts that they were abusive over the ancient Filipinos. That they were known as lazy bigots. However, my point is the culture that they brought in the nation have more positive effect in contrast to the negativeness of them. They created the people of peace and respectful of others, in view of the Christian virtues on forgiveness, kindness and love.

I am certainly aware of the exportation of inquisition, the Philippines being a Spanish colony since the mid of 1500's, but, if you compare them to human sacrifice where a person is killed to be offered to some kind of god, then, the inquisition is million times better than that of killing another human as an offering.

I don't want to argue with you about your personal ideals about the Aztecs and the Medieval Europe, but for sure, the ideals about the enlightenment which created the laws regarding the respect to human life, justice to all the people, equality in gender, modern democracy and the rule of law are gift to mankind, and those principles reached my nation because of Spanish and American colonization and I don't see any wrongness about that.
The "brutal" and "violent" sultanate of sulu allowed non muslim chinese to live and trade there. There was no jizya or attacks on chinese.

Chapter III - The Moro-Spanish War

The spanish treated chinese so bad that 4000 of them went to join the moros to fight against spain.

The Chinese in the Philippines: problems and perspectives - Teresita Ang See - Google Books

The ethnic Chinese in the Philippine revolution - Teresita Ang See, Bon Juan Go - Google Books

The Philippine Islands, 1493-1803: explorations - James Alexander Robertson - Google Books

Congressional serial set - United States. Government Printing Office - Google Books

Elihu Root collection of United States documents relating to the Philippine ... - Elihu Root, United States - Google Books

United States Congressional serial set - Google Books

Historical Conservation Society - Alfonso Felix - Google Books

All chinese rebellions were provoked by spanish discrimination

Gomez perez dasmarinas was killed when the chinese he forcibly drafted as galley slaves mutinied and killed him in 1593

The inhabitants of the Philippines - Frederic Henry Read Sawyer - Google Books

the rebellion of chinese against spain in 1603 was provoked by the spanish

State And Society In The Philippines - Patricio N. Abinales, Donna J. Amoroso, Donna J. Amoroso - Google Books

The Chinese Repository - Google Books

A short history of the Philippines - Teodoro A. Agoncillo - Google Books

Everyone's History: A Reader-friendly World History of War, Bravery, Slavery ... - John H. Chambers - Google Books
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Old November 18th, 2012, 05:13 PM   #209

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Deke, the point is not about allowing the Chinese merchants to work or live in Sulo. The point is granting that they allow other people to be in their territory, they have no right to attack Christian villages and kidnap people to be their slaves. That form of treatment of other people was never practiced by the Filipinos who were under the rule of Spanish colonial regime because slavery was and is still illegal in the Philippines today, and that commenced from the moment of Spanish colonization because as I'd stated, during the pre-colonial era, the natives used to engage in slavery and caste system was a way of life. Man and woman are equal in terms of marital rights in my nation and that is because of Christianity that was introduced by the Spaniards.

The Chinese maybe be treated badly in the country, by the Spaniards, but, it is not the matter at issue regarding colonialism because they themselves are migrants too who create their own ghetto in the nation which causes animosities with the native Filipinos. In the latter part of history they were also selling opium in the nation and that was one of the practices that they'd done during the colonial era that worsen the hatred against them by the Spaniards.

The fact remains that the territories in the Philippines that were actively occupied by the Spaniards were provided with schools, churches, universities and infirmaries where the people were educated and cultured about the respect and importance of human life. Where the people were made to be civil with each other and putting the law unto thy own hands was discouraged. The condition got better when the Americans arrived. Such is the reason why I do not see any negativeness about colonialism being part of the history of the Philippines.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 05:46 PM   #210
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Deke, the point is not about allowing the Chinese merchants to work or live in Sulo. The point is granting that they allow other people to be in their territory, they have no right to attack Christian villages and kidnap people to be their slaves. That form of treatment of other people was never practiced by the Filipinos who were under the rule of Spanish colonial regime because slavery was and is still illegal in the Philippines today, and that commenced from the moment of Spanish colonization because as I'd stated, during the pre-colonial era, the natives used to engage in slavery and caste system was a way of life. Man and woman are equal in terms of marital rights in my nation and that is because of Christianity that was introduced by the Spaniards.

The Chinese maybe be treated badly in the country, by the Spaniards, but, it is not the matter at issue regarding colonialism because they themselves are migrants too who create their own ghetto in the nation which causes animosities with the native Filipinos. In the latter part of history they were also selling opium in the nation and that was one of the practices that they'd done during the colonial era that worsen the hatred against them by the Spaniards.

The fact remains that the territories in the Philippines that were actively occupied by the Spaniards were provided with schools, churches, universities and infirmaries where the people were educated and cultured about the respect and importance of human life. Where the people were made to be civil with each other and putting the law unto thy own hands was discouraged. The condition got better when the Americans arrived. Such is the reason why I do not see any negativeness about colonialism being part of the history of the Philippines.
And who built those first churches, schools, and universities?

Ambition and Identity: Chinese Merchant Elites in Colonial Manila, 1880-1916 - Andrew R. Wilson - Google Books

Chinese Populations in Contemporary Southeast Asian Societies: Identities ... - M. Jocelyn Armstrong, R. Warwick Armstrong, Kent Mulliner - Google Books

They were forced in ghettos by the spanish. The spanish also imposed the highest taxes on chinese, while none of this happened in any of the sultanates.

Ambition and Identity: Chinese Merchant Elites in Colonial Manila, 1880-1916 - Andrew R. Wilson - Google Books

Almost every single form of discrimination that islamophobes claim happen in muslim societies to non muslims were imposed by the spanish on the chinese in manila- higher taxes, ghettos, forced labor, and massacres. And none of these happened in muslim sulu, mindanao, or malacca.

Government Policies Ethnic Asia Pacific - Michael E. (Michael Edward) Brown - Google Books

State And Society In The Philippines - Patricio N. Abinales, Donna J. Amoroso, Donna J. Amoroso - Google Books

Chinese in Philippine Life, 1850-1898 - Edgar Wickberg - Google Books

Overseas Chinese Entrepreneurship and Capitalist Development in Southeast Asia - Annabelle Gambe - Google Books

The reason why spain allowed chinese to come back after each rebellion and massacre was because they could not survive without chinese masons, carpenters, cobblers, weavers, tailors, bakers, and other craftsmen and traders who supplied almost all of the trade and products. After each massacre, suddenly the spaniards realized they could not run their colony without chinese.

The spanish also planned an invasion of china

Ancestors, Virgins, and Friars: Christianity As a Local Religion in Late ... - Eugenio Menegon - Google Books

Last edited by deke; November 18th, 2012 at 06:17 PM.
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