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Old November 19th, 2012, 12:58 AM   #211

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Originally Posted by deke View Post
And who built those first churches, schools, and universities?

Ambition and Identity: Chinese Merchant Elites in Colonial Manila, 1880-1916 - Andrew R. Wilson - Google Books

Chinese Populations in Contemporary Southeast Asian Societies: Identities ... - M. Jocelyn Armstrong, R. Warwick Armstrong, Kent Mulliner - Google Books

They were forced in ghettos by the spanish. The spanish also imposed the highest taxes on chinese, while none of this happened in any of the sultanates.

Ambition and Identity: Chinese Merchant Elites in Colonial Manila, 1880-1916 - Andrew R. Wilson - Google Books

Almost every single form of discrimination that islamophobes claim happen in muslim societies to non muslims were imposed by the spanish on the chinese in manila- higher taxes, ghettos, forced labor, and massacres. And none of these happened in muslim sulu, mindanao, or malacca.

Government Policies Ethnic Asia Pacific - Michael E. (Michael Edward) Brown - Google Books

State And Society In The Philippines - Patricio N. Abinales, Donna J. Amoroso, Donna J. Amoroso - Google Books

Chinese in Philippine Life, 1850-1898 - Edgar Wickberg - Google Books

Overseas Chinese Entrepreneurship and Capitalist Development in Southeast Asia - Annabelle Gambe - Google Books

The reason why spain allowed chinese to come back after each rebellion and massacre was because they could not survive without chinese masons, carpenters, cobblers, weavers, tailors, bakers, and other craftsmen and traders who supplied almost all of the trade and products. After each massacre, suddenly the spaniards realized they could not run their colony without chinese.

The spanish also planned an invasion of china

Ancestors, Virgins, and Friars: Christianity As a Local Religion in Late ... - Eugenio Menegon - Google Books
It does not matter who were the masons of those Catholic Churches for they are not in the Philippines in the first place without the Spaniards coming over in my country. Those Chinese were Buddhist or whatever, and the tradition in the Philippines about equality between a man and a woman is because of Christianity of the nation that is brought about by the Spaniards and not by the Chinese. I owe nothing to China, but with Spain and the U.S. I tip my hat to them, because my nation became a better country because of the Western influx of ideals in my land and I am proud of our democracy and the rule of law. Nothing is Chinese in them, though I like their noodles.

The Universities in the Philippines do not teach Taoism or Confucianism but, we have the ideas of Thomas Aquinas, the Jesuits, and the Civil Law and Roman Laws. Such was augmented by the time the Americans arrive where their Constitutionalism was shared with us, and so, my nation is secular and these democracy in motion is what I marvel a lot. That shall not happen if not for the colonialism of the West and I am glad to know them and have them, in contrast to the caste system, polygamy which negates equity of the marital rights of women and the separation of the church and the state. How shall I dislike colonialism with these benefits in my nation?

Regarding the Chinese Ghettos, they created it because they want to create their own village and they marry a fellow Chinese instead of Filipinos. Unlike the Spaniards, the Chinese were racists because they don't like to intermarry with the Filipino natives, and it is only in the modern time that they intermarry with the locals.

I am not discussing anything about Islamophobe because Moro raids and slavery in Sulo are facts of the Philippine History, my great great grandfather being a hero in my mothers land who fought with them in the shore lines sometime in mid of 1800's.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 08:17 AM   #212
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Post Which European Colonial power treated their colonies the best and which the worst?


I think as strange as it may sound, that Imperialist Germany acted the most respectful to their colonies as for instance they left the people in their colonies their Independence under the German Imperialist Flag. After all it was in Germany's interest to keep these colonies to feed its industry that was rapidly growing since the proclamation of the second German Reich in 1870 at Versailles. Germany wanted to polish up it's image and set a good comparisons to other colonies of other nations to may be spark revolutionary movements.
I probably think that the British were the harshest to their colonies because they had to defend their colonies from the inhabitants of the colonies multiple times as seen for instance in the Boer War. They also saw the inhabitants of their colonies as people under the level of theirs for instance there was huge segregation in India and in other colonies.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 08:58 AM   #213

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I think as strange as it may sound, that Imperialist Germany acted the most respectful to their colonies as for instance they left the people in their colonies their Independence under the German Imperialist Flag. After all it was in Germany's interest to keep these colonies to feed its industry that was rapidly growing since the proclamation of the second German Reich in 1870 at Versailles. Germany wanted to polish up it's image and set a good comparisons to other colonies of other nations to may be spark revolutionary movements.
I probably think that the British were the harshest to their colonies because they had to defend their colonies from the inhabitants of the colonies multiple times as seen for instance in the Boer War. They also saw the inhabitants of their colonies as people under the level of theirs for instance there was huge segregation in India and in other colonies.
May I refer you to:-
East Africa
The Wahehe Rebellion
The Maji Maji rebellion and its aftermath.
SW Africa
Hendrik Witbooi's uprising
The Herero and Namaqua Genocide
The Shark Island Extermination Camp
The Windhoek Concentration Camp
The Okahandra Concentration Camp
The Swakopmund Concentration Camp
The Herero "comfort" women.
However the German record in the Pacific and West Africa was not that bad, especially the educational activities of missionaries.
Your first paragraph regarding leaving people independent is just not true.
The excesses of the colonial authorities in South West shocked even the Boers and they are hard to shock, the scandal also rocked Germany and the rest of Europe. Reading of the activities, especially in the camps, complete with medical experiments is a bit chilling in the light of what happened fifty years later.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:15 AM   #214

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkPanter456 View Post
I think as strange as it may sound, that Imperialist Germany acted the most respectful to their colonies as for instance they left the people in their colonies their Independence under the German Imperialist Flag. After all it was in Germany's interest to keep these colonies to feed its industry that was rapidly growing since the proclamation of the second German Reich in 1870 at Versailles. Germany wanted to polish up it's image and set a good comparisons to other colonies of other nations to may be spark revolutionary movements.
I probably think that the British were the harshest to their colonies because they had to defend their colonies from the inhabitants of the colonies multiple times as seen for instance in the Boer War. They also saw the inhabitants of their colonies as people under the level of theirs for instance there was huge segregation in India and in other colonies.
Herero and Maji Maji disagree about this.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 11:32 AM   #215

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancientgeezer View Post
May I refer you to:-
East Africa
The Wahehe Rebellion
The Maji Maji rebellion and its aftermath.
SW Africa
Hendrik Witbooi's uprising
The Herero and Namaqua Genocide
The Shark Island Extermination Camp
The Windhoek Concentration Camp
The Okahandra Concentration Camp
The Swakopmund Concentration Camp
The Herero "comfort" women.
However the German record in the Pacific and West Africa was not that bad, especially the educational activities of missionaries.
Your first paragraph regarding leaving people independent is just not true.
The excesses of the colonial authorities in South West shocked even the Boers and they are hard to shock, the scandal also rocked Germany and the rest of Europe. Reading of the activities, especially in the camps, complete with medical experiments is a bit chilling in the light of what happened fifty years later.
He believes the third reich were the greatest ever empire, so it's quite possible your evidence won't be believed there.

Last edited by astafjevs; November 19th, 2012 at 11:38 AM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by dagul View Post
It does not matter who were the masons of those Catholic Churches for they are not in the Philippines in the first place without the Spaniards coming over in my country. Those Chinese were Buddhist or whatever, and the tradition in the Philippines about equality between a man and a woman is because of Christianity of the nation that is brought about by the Spaniards and not by the Chinese. I owe nothing to China, but with Spain and the U.S. I tip my hat to them, because my nation became a better country because of the Western influx of ideals in my land and I am proud of our democracy and the rule of law. Nothing is Chinese in them, though I like their noodles.

The Universities in the Philippines do not teach Taoism or Confucianism but, we have the ideas of Thomas Aquinas, the Jesuits, and the Civil Law and Roman Laws. Such was augmented by the time the Americans arrive where their Constitutionalism was shared with us, and so, my nation is secular and these democracy in motion is what I marvel a lot. That shall not happen if not for the colonialism of the West and I am glad to know them and have them, in contrast to the caste system, polygamy which negates equity of the marital rights of women and the separation of the church and the state. How shall I dislike colonialism with these benefits in my nation?

Regarding the Chinese Ghettos, they created it because they want to create their own village and they marry a fellow Chinese instead of Filipinos. Unlike the Spaniards, the Chinese were racists because they don't like to intermarry with the Filipino natives, and it is only in the modern time that they intermarry with the locals.

I am not discussing anything about Islamophobe because Moro raids and slavery in Sulo are facts of the Philippine History, my great great grandfather being a hero in my mothers land who fought with them in the shore lines sometime in mid of 1800's.
Excuse me? How can homosexual relationships give birth to children? Are you saying that all the chinese in the philippines (almost all men) sealed themselves off in a ghetto so they can practice gay marriage?

The spanish put quotas on the number of chinese allowed in manila, and when they started exceeding that number, they planned another massacre.

When the spanish realized the colony could not survive without any chinese they had to let chinese back into the city.

The story of the Philippines for use in the schools of the Philippine Islands - Adeline Knapp - Google Books

You keep on mentioning moro slave raids, but not the fact that it was the spanish who started the war by attacking the moros first, and repeatedly tried to conquer them for 300 years because they brought the islamophobic reconquesta mentality to southeast asia. The spanish also shipped black slaves to their colonies, so claiming that they have a moral high ground is BS.

The first republic and democracy in east asia was not established by the spanish, the lanfang republic established by chinese on borneo, and it had peaceful relations with the muslim sultanates like pontianak, which was eatablished by a slave trading arab.

Studies in Chinese Archaeology【Centre for Chinese Archaeology and Art ... - Dekun Zheng - Google Books

Golddiggers, Farmers, and Traders in the "Chinese Districts" of West ... - Mary F. Somers Heidhues - Google Books

Taiwan guang Hua za zhi - Google Books

The Sarawak Chinese - John M. Chin - Google Books

In islam all humans are supposed to be equal, and believers get equal treatment. I don't see how the spanish introduced that idea to the philippines.

China had strong trade ties to the muslim states on luzon like the kingdom of manila, chinese merchants traveled to the area all the time and no trouble between chinese and natives happened until it was colonized by spain.

The ming dynasty established good diplomatic relations with sulu and mindanao because they did not try to murder or invade them like the spanish. The emperor yongle even sent a governor to luzon, who abandoned luzon after yongle died.

Connecting & Distancing: Southeast Asia and China - Khai Leong Ho - Google Books

Turning Points I' 2007 Ed. - Antonio, Et Al - Google Books

In Our Image: America's Empire in the Philippines - Stanley Karnow - Google Books

Ancestors, Virgins, and Friars: Christianity As a Local Religion in Late ... - Eugenio Menegon - Google Books

Last edited by deke; November 19th, 2012 at 03:30 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 05:48 PM   #217
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The vast majority in southeast asia were mixed after the first generation before the 1800s. The peranakan chinese in indonesia were descended from chinese marrying local women, and their native language was malay. There were thousands of chinese mestizos in the philippines.

The spanish forced chinese into ghettos in order to collect taxes more easily, since chinese had to pay higher taxes than anyone else, and in order to control the population since they thought it was a threat. Decrees were issued that limited the number of chinese in manila because the spanish feared their numbers. The spanish forbade chinese from going out of the ghetto and interacting with filipinos

Chinese Among Others: Emigration in Modern Times - Philip A. Kuhn - Google Books

Sojourners and Settlers: Histories of Southeast Asia and the Chinese - Anthony Reid Kristine Alilunas-Rodgers - Google Books

Ambition and Identity: Chinese Merchant Elites in Colonial Manila, 1880-1916 - Andrew R. Wilson - Google Books

In Our Image: America's Empire in the Philippines - Stanley Karnow - Google Books

Investing in the Early Modern Built Environment: Europeans, Asians, Settlers ... - Google Books

Iberians in the Singapore-Melaka Area and Adjacent Regions: (16th to 18th ... - Peter Borschberg - Google Books

You are projecting what you see in the modern philippines on what happened in the colonial era. We are not talking about why chinese in manila's chinatown now don't like to marry filipinos or live in a ghetto.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 06:00 PM   #218

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Quote:
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Excuse me? How can homosexual relationships give birth to children? Are you saying that all the chinese in the philippines (almost all men) sealed themselves off in a ghetto so they can practice gay marriage?
They migrate in the Philippines with women and what they did was they marry their own sisters, cousin or relatives for as long as they're Chinese. I never said anything about gay marriage, and it is you who implied that.

Quote:
The spanish put quotas on the number of chinese allowed in manila, and when they started exceeding that number, they planned another massacre.

When the spanish realized the colony could not survive without any chinese they had to let chinese back into the city.

The story of the Philippines for use in the schools of the Philippine Islands - Adeline Knapp - Google Books

You keep on mentioning moro slave raids, but not the fact that it was the spanish who started the war by attacking the moros first, and repeatedly tried to conquer them for 300 years because they brought the islamophobic reconquesta mentality to southeast asia. The spanish also shipped black slaves to their colonies, so claiming that they have a moral high ground is BS.

The first republic and democracy in east asia was not established by the spanish, the lanfang republic established by chinese on borneo, and it had peaceful relations with the muslim sultanates like pontianak, which was eatablished by a slave trading arab.

Studies in Chinese Archaeology【Centre for Chinese Archaeology and Art ... - Dekun Zheng - Google Books

Golddiggers, Farmers, and Traders in the "Chinese Districts" of West ... - Mary F. Somers Heidhues - Google Books

Taiwan guang Hua za zhi - Google Books

The Sarawak Chinese - John M. Chin - Google Books

In islam all humans are supposed to be equal, and believers get equal treatment. I don't see how the spanish introduced that idea to the philippines.

China had strong trade ties to the muslim states on luzon like the kingdom of manila, chinese merchants traveled to the area all the time and no trouble between chinese and natives happened until it was colonized by spain.

The ming dynasty established good diplomatic relations with sulu and mindanao because they did not try to murder or invade them like the spanish. The emperor yongle even sent a governor to luzon, who abandoned luzon after yongle died.

Connecting & Distancing: Southeast Asia and China - Khai Leong Ho - Google Books

Turning Points I' 2007 Ed. - Antonio, Et Al - Google Books

In Our Image: America's Empire in the Philippines - Stanley Karnow - Google Books

Ancestors, Virgins, and Friars: Christianity As a Local Religion in Late ... - Eugenio Menegon - Google Books
If it was the Spaniards who invaded the Moros, then they must not kill the Filipinos and raid them because these people are living peacefully in villages without doing anything wrong against them. They should allow them to thrive peacefully and rather attack and kill the Spaniards who are the ones who attack them. But not the peaceful villages who were their victims for hundreds of years, and Moro raids and slavery did not start from the time the Philippines was conquered by Spain. It was a way of their life being warrior people. Tribal war was prevalent in the Philippines long before the Spanish conquest. That is why there are tribes who engage into head hunting, and as I said caste system was also a way of life.

I never stated that Spain has higher moral ground, rather I am glad that we Filipinos became Christians and learned that all men are equal before the eyes of God and women are treated as equal of men in terms of marital rights, and that is the rule of law.

I never said that Spain gave democracy in my land, rather they created a peaceful society that's pursuant to Christian virtues about love, kindness, forgiveness and also the implementation of Civil Law and the concepts about the Roman Laws, for democracy in the Philippines was the gift of American colonization, and also the propagation of public education.

My arguments are about the positive things regarding Spanish and American colonization and not about the Chines migrants in the nation. I do not make any asseveration about the Chinese migrants who live in the nation for whatever reason they like.

My point is the Philippines became a better country not because of these Chinese migrants that arrive in my nation, but because of Christianity and universities that were established by Spaniards and the Constitutionalism and democracy of the Americans.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 06:53 PM   #219
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They migrate in the Philippines with women and what they did was they marry their own sisters, cousin or relatives for as long as they're Chinese. I never said anything about gay marriage, and it is you who implied that.

If it was the Spaniards who invaded the Moros, then they must not kill the Filipinos and raid them because these people are living peacefully in villages without doing anything wrong against them. They should allow them to thrive peacefully and rather attack and kill the Spaniards who are the ones who attack them. But not the peaceful villages who were their victims for hundreds of years, and Moro raids and slavery did not start from the time the Philippines was conquered by Spain. It was a way of their life being warrior people. Tribal war was prevalent in the Philippines long before the Spanish conquest. That is why there are tribes who engage into head hunting, and as I said caste system was also a way of life.

I never stated that Spain has higher moral ground, rather I am glad that we Filipinos became Christians and learned that all men are equal before the eyes of God and women are treated as equal of men in terms of marital rights, and that is the rule of law.

I never said that Spain gave democracy in my land, rather they created a peaceful society that's pursuant to Christian virtues about love, kindness, forgiveness and also the implementation of Civil Law and the concepts about the Roman Laws, for democracy in the Philippines was the gift of American colonization, and also the propagation of public education.

My arguments are about the positive things regarding Spanish and American colonization and not about the Chines migrants in the nation. I do not make any asseveration about the Chinese migrants who live in the nation for whatever reason they like.

My point is the Philippines became a better country not because of these Chinese migrants that arrive in my nation, but because of Christianity and universities that were established by Spaniards and the Constitutionalism and democracy of the Americans.
You should ask SSPX, el caudillo Franco and other Catholic traditionalists of what they think of equal treatment of women.

All men are equal in islam too. These ideas are not limited to catholocism. By the way, other non muslim austronesians don't circumcise. Only filipinos do. Where do you think that came from?
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Old November 19th, 2012, 07:57 PM   #220

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You should ask SSPX, el caudillo Franco and other Catholic traditionalists of what they think of equal treatment of women.

All men are equal in islam too. These ideas are not limited to catholocism. By the way, other non muslim austronesians don't circumcise. Only filipinos do. Where do you think that came from?
I am not discussing Catholic versus Islam. It is you who is pushing the issue. My point is because in the Philippines, the Spaniards arrived and colonized the archipelago, the Christian ideals about monogamy wherein marital rights is equal between a man and woman is what I marvel about, regarding equality in them. In a society where polygamy is the way of life and only man can marry several women and the latter is not allowed to have more than one husband, there is an obvious inequality on the grounds of gender. I am discussing polygamy in contrast to monogamy and I submit that Islam is not the only culture in the country that engages in such form of marital relationship, because amongst the Ifugaos and Igorots of the Philippines, the same way of life is likewise practiced by them, which is an obvious exhibition of gender inequality between a man and a woman regarding marital rights. Ergo, gender equality over marital rights in the Philippines is due to colonialism. I do not want to live in a society where there is no gender equality in terms of marital rights. I am proud of the Western laws in the Philippines where women and man are equal over marital rights and obligations.

Regarding circumcision, it is from the Abrahamic religion and it both came from the Islamic people and the Christians. Those Filipinos who live in non-Muslim territories and are Christians got the idea of which from the Catholic Church, and those who live in the Moro lands obtained them from the practice Islamic people.
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