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Old November 23rd, 2012, 02:18 PM   #241

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Deke, none in my posts did I ever aver that inquisition and tortures were fine, and if ever you'd read my position over those events in my previous missives, I stated point blank that such were one of the greatest sins of the Catholic Church as an institution. Likewise, I do not claim that colonization is perfectly fine because it is an imposition by one group of people over the other.

However, in view of the peculiarities of culture of the people around the world, between the trials of witchcraft or inquisition that was practiced by the Spaniards and the human sacrifice being the ritual of the Aztecs, I submit that the latter is worst than the former in terms of gravity of disrespect and violations of human rights.

Much as I do not like colonization because it is an intrusion over the lives of the people such as that of my ancestors who were the ancient Filipinos, I am consistent with my position that it created a better Filipino society which dismatled the evils of slavery and caste system. I am glad that the ancient practices of headhunting in those areas which the Spaniards controlled were decreed to be a crime, due to the fact of introduction of Christianity in my country. Thus, between the pre-colonial Philippines and the colonial era, it is evident that my country became more peaceful with the people who have respect over the other due to the Christian ideals which are anchored on forgiveness, kindness and love.

I am fully aware that the conversion of my countrymen was not soley by the cross where Jesus was crucified but by the cross of the Spanish swords, the thunder of their cannos and the lightning from their muskets, and be that as it may, my nation was provided with educational institutions that preach and teaches what it means to be civil and respectful of the authorities and the fellowmen.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 11:29 AM   #242

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Deke, none in my posts did I ever aver that inquisition and tortures were fine, and if ever you'd read my position over those events in my previous missives, I stated point blank that such were one of the greatest sins of the Catholic Church as an institution. Likewise, I do not claim that colonization is perfectly fine because it is an imposition by one group of people over the other.

However, in view of the peculiarities of culture of the people around the world, between the trials of witchcraft or inquisition that was practiced by the Spaniards and the human sacrifice being the ritual of the Aztecs, I submit that the latter is worst than the former in terms of gravity of disrespect and violations of human rights. .
How is human sacrifice worse than having competitions to see who could chop off an aruac's head in one blow.Or roasting native peoples alive. All documented crimes of the Spanish in the new world. Thew first or one ofthe first genocides in human history was the annihilation of aboriginal american groups like the Aruac by the Spanish.

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Much as I do not like colonization because it is an intrusion over the lives of the people such as that of my ancestors who were the ancient Filipinos, I am consistent with my position that it created a better Filipino society which dismatled the evils of slavery and caste system. I am glad that the ancient practices of headhunting in those areas which the Spaniards controlled were decreed to be a crime, due to the fact of introduction of Christianity in my country. Thus, between the pre-colonial Philippines and the colonial era, it is evident that my country became more peaceful with the people who have respect over the other due to the Christian ideals which are anchored on forgiveness, kindness and love.

I am fully aware that the conversion of my countrymen was not soley by the cross where Jesus was crucified but by the cross of the Spanish swords, the thunder of their cannos and the lightning from their muskets, and be that as it may, my nation was provided with educational institutions that preach and teaches what it means to be civil and respectful of the authorities and the fellowmen.
Allof these things could have been achieved without direct colonial control and abuse. Diplomacy and Trade would have been suficient.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 01:40 PM   #243

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How is human sacrifice worse than having competitions to see who could chop off an aruac's head in one blow.Or roasting native peoples alive. All documented crimes of the Spanish in the new world. Thew first or one ofthe first genocides in human history was the annihilation of aboriginal american groups like the Aruac by the Spanish.
It's because the Spanish attrocities was only momentary which was the transformation of culture of these people who do not want to cooperate with them, whereas the human sacrifice was the way of life of the Aztecs thus, without the Spanish intervention, that would probably be their way of life until today, in as much as the tribes which were not influenced by the Spaniards who engaged in head hunting such as that in the Philippines only changed their way of life the moment the Americans conquered them.
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Allof these things could have been achieved without direct colonial control and abuse. Diplomacy and Trade would have been suficient.
Unfortunatedly in the 1500's the intercourse of countries was not very diplomatic and war was more apparent that it is today as reflected among the European nations and the territories which they colonized. The Philippines itself had no central government because the country was composed of tribes and little kingdoms which were ruled by Rajas and Datus and diplomatic relationship can't change that culture of the natives of the nation wherein caste system and slavery were widely practiced. There was a necessity for an outside force to introduce change in the country and tame the warrior culture and savagery of the ancient Filipinos who were into head hunting and other forms of human rights abuses. The introduction of Christianity by the Spaniards to the Filipinos created a better society where people had respect to the rule of law.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 06:02 PM   #244

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It's because the Spanish attrocities was only momentary which was the transformation of culture of these people who do not want to cooperate with them, whereas the human sacrifice was the way of life of the Aztecs thus, without the Spanish intervention, that would probably be their way of life until today, in as much as the tribes which were not influenced by the Spaniards who engaged in head hunting such as that in the Philippines only changed their way of life the moment the Americans conquered them..
No it was not momentary. The Spanish persisted until they wiped out certain Amerindian tribes and until they completely wiped out their civilizations. Those natives who remained becames mestizos--the biproduct of Spanish --native american marriages--often forced. Others who survived centuries afterward suffered all kinds of discrimination which is being remedied only today in certain countries, like Bolivia:

"Bolivia has transformed itself by ignoring the Washington Consensus | Luis Hernández Navarro | World news | guardian.co.uk


Gabriela Oviedo is a fashion model and TV personality. She is a 28-year-old brunette, almost six feet tall. Born in the Bolivian province of Santa Cruz, she was elected as the national beauty queen in 2003. In 2004, Gabriela took part in the Miss Universe pageant. There she was asked to name one of the biggest misconceptions about her country. In awkward English, she answered: "Um … unfortunately, people that don't know Bolivia very much think that we are all just Indian people from the west side of the country. It's La Paz, all the image that we reflect, is that poor people and very short people and Indian people ... I'm from the other side of the country, the east side, and it's not cold, it's very hot and we are tall and we are white people and we know English." "

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Unfortunatedly in the 1500's the intercourse of countries was not very diplomatic and war was more apparent that it is today as reflected among the European nations and the territories which they colonized. The Philippines itself had no central government because the country was composed of tribes and little kingdoms which were ruled by Rajas and Datus and diplomatic relationship can't change that culture of the natives of the nation wherein caste system and slavery were widely practiced. There was a necessity for an outside force to introduce change in the country and tame the warrior culture and savagery of the ancient Filipinos who were into head hunting and other forms of human rights abuses. The introduction of Christianity by the Spaniards to the Filipinos created a better society where people had respect to the rule of law.
But deke has pointed out over and over that in the absense of Spanish colonialism what would have evolved in the Phillipines would be a Pan Malay Islamic type of culture, like your neighbours in Malaysia, if i read him correctly.

Did filipinos do anything else besides head hunting before the Spanish? And how widespread was this practise before the Spanish arrived.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 07:53 PM   #245

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No it was not momentary. The Spanish persisted until they wiped out certain Amerindian tribes and until they completely wiped out their civilizations. Those natives who remained becames mestizos--the biproduct of Spanish --native american marriages--often forced. Others who survived centuries afterward suffered all kinds of discrimination which is being remedied only today in certain countries, like Bolivia:

"Bolivia has transformed itself by ignoring the Washington Consensus | Luis Hernández Navarro | World news | guardian.co.uk

Gabriela Oviedo is a fashion model and TV personality. She is a 28-year-old brunette, almost six feet tall. Born in the Bolivian province of Santa Cruz, she was elected as the national beauty queen in 2003. In 2004, Gabriela took part in the Miss Universe pageant. There she was asked to name one of the biggest misconceptions about her country. In awkward English, she answered: "Um … unfortunately, people that don't know Bolivia very much think that we are all just Indian people from the west side of the country. It's La Paz, all the image that we reflect, is that poor people and very short people and Indian people ... I'm from the other side of the country, the east side, and it's not cold, it's very hot and we are tall and we are white people and we know English." "
I fully comprehend with such history of South American countries, and maintain by my asseveration that it was temporary because the whole scenario was the process of transformation of their culture. The colonization is in fact an act of war by the invading people from another country and resistance over such force shall also be meet with the equivalent or more powerful act to subjugate the natives of the territory. In the case of the Philippines, there was no such situation as that because the natives cooperated with the Spaniards by embracing the new faith that was introduced to them and so the colonial era amongst the Catholic Filipinos was relatively peaceful.

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But deke has pointed out over and over that in the absense of Spanish colonialism what would have evolved in the Phillipines would be a Pan Malay Islamic type of culture, like your neighbours in Malaysia, if i read him correctly.

Did filipinos do anything else besides head hunting before the Spanish? And how widespread was this practise before the Spanish arrived.
That is exactly the reason why I am thankful of the Spanish colonization of the Philippines because my nation manifests equity in terms of gender rights specifically on marital rights and obligations between a man and a woman. My nation is much more libertarian than our neighbors like during Valentines day, couples can go to motels without the fear of getting arrested the way they experience it in Malaysia.

Certainly, the ancient Filipinos have established culture other than head hunting, before the Spaniards and one of them is the caste system in the nation where there were slaves as I pointed out, the commoners and the royal families, and that form of social life was changed by the Spaniards as Christianity was introduced to us, and thus it is great that such Pan Malay Islamic scenario did not happen in my nation and instead it took the path of the way of life of Western people in the Philippine situation where principles like equality, justice for all, liberty and freedom under the democratic government is the way of life of the Filipinos. Such is what I marvel with the Spanish and American colonization of my nation instead of adopting those rigid laws of our neighbors.

Again, I like to point out that in my nation there is no death penalty and that is attributable to Christianity that's brought about by the Spaniards where the ideals about forgiveness is a virtue and Democracy of the Americans and principles regarding respect over human rights.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 09:05 PM   #246

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By the way it is my submission that Portugal and Spain being Iberian territories that were once occupied by the Moors before becoming world powers, most probably inherited that desire to convert the people to believe on the faith that they possess because of such experience with the Saracens.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 06:30 AM   #247

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There have only been 2 States in History who knew how to run Empire, the British and Rome.

Belgium, France, Belgium, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy, the Ottomans, Persia, Mongols, China, Japan, Russia and any others were all crap.

Rome and Britain knew how for a couple of reasons, we were there to trade, and we put Roman/British Law in place and invested in the Provinces/colonies and let the locals get on with their lives as long as they didn't disrupt trade.

All the others bled their Colonies, or treated the locals like sh1t.

And Britain had one other saving grace, we knew when to depart.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 07:20 AM   #248
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There have only been 2 States in History who knew how to run Empire, the British and Rome.

Belgium, France, Belgium, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy, the Ottomans, Persia, Mongols, China, Japan, Russia and any others were all crap.

Rome and Britain knew how for a couple of reasons, we were there to trade, and we put Roman/British Law in place and invested in the Provinces/colonies and let the locals get on with their lives as long as they didn't disrupt trade.

All the others bled their Colonies, or treated the locals like sh1t.

And Britain had one other saving grace, we knew when to depart.
W0W, you must be a hard-die imperialistc nationalist... The UK is the reason the US festers with hate crimes and racism... The mentality of segregation was seen in the British and the Dutch (Apartheid anyone?) however the Brits and Dutch had great administrative skills so they left rich colonies behind... But Spaniards mingled with the native population without that strong racism so the cesulting cultures are somewhat more integrated and way less driven into hate crimes, bullying and unjustified violence... I am glad I descend from Scots but you cant hid the white man's elephant in the room under a flag of pride...
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Old November 30th, 2012, 07:35 AM   #249

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I fully comprehend with such history of South American countries, and maintain by my asseveration that it was temporary because the whole scenario was the process of transformation of their culture. The colonization is in fact an act of war by the invading people from another country and resistance over such force shall also be meet with the equivalent or more powerful act to subjugate the natives of the territory. In the case of the Philippines, there was no such situation as that because the natives cooperated with the Spaniards by embracing the new faith that was introduced to them and so the colonial era amongst the Catholic Filipinos was relatively peaceful.
Dagul i need to disagree with you the way that the Spanish carried the colonization maybe in the Philippines they was not so bad, but in the south america they are very cruel, my tribe was nearly slaughtered by the spanish, the salvation was the adoption of the horse that allowed my people to became nomads and moved to actual brazil, and the religious question was not so important for the spanish in some places they waged the called "Fair wars" wars with the objectve of killing the natives to "clean the land"
a example in the region were i live calling someone a spanish is used as an insult
but i must say that in my opinion they were not the worst

Mansamusa i can be wrong but the Arawak still lives the Taino a related groups went extinct but not all the Arawak
Arawak_peoples Arawak_peoples

Last edited by Tairusiano; November 30th, 2012 at 07:44 AM.
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Old November 30th, 2012, 01:39 PM   #250

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^I appreciate that information that you share with us here in the forum. First of all, I never stated that the Spaniards were not abusive in the Philippines, only that my country became a better place to live because of the civility that was ordained pursuant to the laws that they brought with them, creating a central government and uniting the country as one.

In the Philippines, the word Spaniard used to also mean a bigot. However, as the country had been the colony of the Americans since 1898 till 1946 after WW2, and it gained its independence, those things had been part of the oblivion and now the country is moving forward and embracing those that they learned from their colinizers as their own, like Christianity and democracy.
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