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March 24th, 2012, 07:06 AM
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#41 | | Historian
Joined: Jun 2009 From: Slovakia Posts: 1,598 | Quote:
Originally Posted by dagul When I say them I mean like the crimes that you said were the arrests of innocent civilians and I consider the USSR Supreme Court because of its scope over the whole country in terms of extent of influence. | I think you would have a very hard time specifying your "stalin's crimes" in a exact way that court would have to, so that it covers only real crimes. Even some people sentenced for political charges were sentenced justly. There were real spies and real conspirators in USSR, just like they were anywhere else. Half of GULAG population were common criminals, sentenced for same charges which were often misused for political purposes. Just read what Solzhenitsyn wrote about these people. It wasn't so simple as to say "every arrest was wrongful", or even "every arrest for this particular article was wrongful".
If "scope over the whole country in terms of extent of influence" is your criteria, then in communist USSR you could hardly desire any more autoritative body than Congress of Communist Party of Soviet Union. In terms of real influence, it was far beyond Supreme Court, the Supreme Court was de-facto subordinate to it. And I am sure you have heard of
The so-called "secret speech" (which wasn't very secret, as we know) is just as positive and influential act as the USA Supreme Court ruling you quoted. Both were symptoms of liberalization period, and in both cases we need to differentiate between era that preceded and era that followed. You can't say "democracy segregated blacks" just as you can't say "communist regimes killed priests", without mentioning that it was only true during certain period of regime. THAT is the whole point azato2000 made. I don't see anything wrong with it, and whatever USA Supreme Court did in 1954 would hardly invalidate it.
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March 24th, 2012, 12:35 PM
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#42 | | Scholar
Joined: Apr 2011 From: Finland Posts: 541 | Quote:
Originally Posted by dagul Smuggling is a crime. I can't believe that transportation of a book like a Bible is a crime. | If Soviet Union "said" it was a crime then it was a crime in Soviet Union. Though I don't know if anyone got any jailtime for it. Bibles were confiscated and smugglers were given a warning or something like that.
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March 24th, 2012, 02:51 PM
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#43 | | Historian
Joined: Mar 2011 From: Warsaw, Poland Posts: 4,017 | Quote:
Originally Posted by vid You can't say "democracy segregated blacks" just as you can't say "communist regimes killed priests", without mentioning that it was only true during certain period of regime. | Actually, several priests were murdered by secret services in communist Poland, at least ten as late as in 1980's, during Jaruzelski's Martial Law and later. The last one in 1989 - Stephen Niedzielak, who looked after the Katyń families and put forbidden memorial plaques on the wall of his parish church in Warsaw. Found at home with his spine broken. Official verdict: slipped unfortunately off his armchair or something. The 1980's here abounded in unfortunate slips and falls.
The most famous one was father Popiełuszko, friend of Warsaw factory workers and "Solidarity" chaplain (tortured to death, his decomposed body found in a lake near Warsaw).
Hope this isn't derailing the thread. The Soviet block being... Soviet, it addresses the OP, I think.
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Last edited by antonina; March 24th, 2012 at 02:58 PM.
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March 24th, 2012, 03:31 PM
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#44 | | Rabbit of Wormhole
Joined: Mar 2012 From: In the bag of ecstatic squirt Posts: 7,877 | Quote:
Originally Posted by vid You can't say "democracy segregated blacks" just as you can't say "communist regimes killed priests", without mentioning that it was only true during certain period of regime. THAT is the whole point azato2000 made. I don't see anything wrong with it, and whatever USA Supreme Court did in 1954 would hardly invalidate it. | When it comes to severity of the act, the segregation of blacks from whites in no match to killing priests in the name of prohibition of religious freedom. It's like comparing oral defamation with murder.
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March 24th, 2012, 03:33 PM
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#45 | | Rabbit of Wormhole
Joined: Mar 2012 From: In the bag of ecstatic squirt Posts: 7,877 | Quote:
Originally Posted by mikainen If Soviet Union "said" it was a crime then it was a crime in Soviet Union. Though I don't know if anyone got any jailtime for it. Bibles were confiscated and smugglers were given a warning or something like that. | That is a law that violates basic human rights which is the right to practice religion and that is horrible.
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March 24th, 2012, 03:50 PM
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#46 | | Rabbit of Wormhole
Joined: Mar 2012 From: In the bag of ecstatic squirt Posts: 7,877 | Quote:
Originally Posted by OUNUPA For Bolsheviks Communism was the religion.Although they modelled the rituals and symbols of Communist state on Christian equivalents. Commies intentionally scheduled their 'holidays' on the same days as it was before they took the power in Russia. There was even the Komsomol Christmas and Easter. The cult of Lenin gave him the status of a god. And very symbol of the Communist state , the Red Star, was steeped in religious and messianic meaning deeply rooted in Orthodoxy. | I do not know anything about that but if that really happened then no wonder Kim Il Jung had been worshiped as god by North Koreans as imposed by their communist government. Wow, the government imposed cult in a communist country while prohibiting other religions is totally a disgrace.
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March 24th, 2012, 06:54 PM
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#47 | | Suspended indefinitely
Joined: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,749 | Quote:
Originally Posted by antonina Actually, several priests were murdered by secret services in communist Poland, at least ten as late as in 1980's, during Jaruzelski's Martial Law and later. The last one in 1989 - Stephen Niedzielak, who looked after the Katyń families and put forbidden memorial plaques on the wall of his parish church in Warsaw. Found at home with his spine broken. Official verdict: slipped unfortunately off his armchair or something. The 1980's here abounded in unfortunate slips and falls.
The most famous one was father Popiełuszko, friend of Warsaw factory workers and "Solidarity" chaplain (tortured to death, his decomposed body found in a lake near Warsaw).
Hope this isn't derailing the thread. The Soviet block being... Soviet, it addresses the OP, I think. | Oh, truly Polish patriots exult at such riddle instances.
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Last edited by Pavel; March 24th, 2012 at 07:02 PM.
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March 24th, 2012, 07:12 PM
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#48 | | Historian
Joined: Jul 2011 From: New York Posts: 1,506 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohammed the Persian This was perhaps in one of the rare moments in history where the state (government) had imposed Atheism on the general population.
My knowledge on this topic is very minimal (sorry!  ) and I am only aware that the Soviet Union banned the church and imposed Atheism (or something like that , correct me if I'm wrong).
What was the reason behind this? Why ban religion ?  | Theistic religions compete with the cult of personality around Lenin, Stalin, etc. An almost identical situation exists in modern North Korea.
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March 25th, 2012, 12:47 AM
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#49 | | Scholar
Joined: Apr 2011 From: Finland Posts: 541 | Quote:
Originally Posted by dagul That is a law that violates basic human rights which is the right to practice religion and that is horrible. | Yes it is. Soviet Union wasn't the best place in the world in the light of human rights.
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March 25th, 2012, 01:10 AM
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#50 | | Archivist
Joined: Mar 2012 Posts: 154 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohammed the Persian This was perhaps in one of the rare moments in history where the state (government) had imposed Atheism on the general population.
My knowledge on this topic is very minimal (sorry!  ) and I am only aware that the Soviet Union banned the church and imposed Atheism (or something like that , correct me if I'm wrong).
What was the reason behind this? Why ban religion ?  | I lived in that time. Religion was not banned, it was minimized if I may say that, but not banned. Can you tell me, is it possible for a person to declare himself an atheist (a christian) in your country?
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