DreamWeaver

The Thirty Years War raged across Europe from 1618-1648, starting with the second Defenestration of Prague and ending with the Peace of Westphalia, though in the Netherlands the war started considerably earlier in Dutch revolt against Spanish rule back in the late 16th Century.

This war was certainly one of the most destructive, and largest to sweep across Europe and touched upon virtually all areas and had consequences and effects for most of the powers of the continent. On both land and sea battles were fought, and even in the East and West Indies the war was taken. It was such a diverse war that it has been seen to actually comprise of many separate individual ones, which add to a greater whole.

Now there are a fair few early-modernists here on Historum, so I shall defer to their better grasp of events etc, but what are peoples views upon this conflict? Was it the last of the great wars of religion? Was it the first of the great wars between nation states, throwing their weight around to establish dominance? Are there any great personalities from the conflict and do they deserve their fame? What were the effects of this conflict upon the people and political landscape of Europe? How, if it did, did Europe Change politically and socially before and after the war? Did the war actually solve any problems that lead to it's rise or did it simply create a whole barrel of new ones that carried on for decades to come?

Views and opinions?

Frank81

Well to begin with, I wouldn't put the first part of the 80 Years War together with the TYW. The war among Netherlands and Spain that began in 1621 was another different from the first. The second was deeply intermigled with the TYW, but at the same time was half independent.

Well regarding the war itself, in spite of being the largest religious conflict of the Modern Age, it was the less passionate in terms of religion, in my opinion. The religiosity of the war decreased also from beginning to end. I would say that State power was a more determining factor, more than in terms of continental hegemony, in terms of local relationships among great lords and lesser lords/local communities: I'm thinking about the relation among the Emperor and the other lords in the HRE specially.


In regard to characters, Gustavus Adolphus is overrated in nearly every field, specialy in the field of military reforms. The crucial reforms were made by Mauritius and elsewhere by uknown soldiers, the GA reforms weren't such many times, and others they were replicated by nobody, with the exception of light field artillery introduction. The war though is full of charimastic leaders among which, I highly consider Wallenstein.

Guaporense

The war was characterized by the pike & shot infantry formations, the general use of cannons as artillery:



It was a time of great developments in military organization and capabilities. European armies really got the lead in terms of military effectiveness after the 30 years war.

Taupadel

Fascinating. One of the most interesting conflicts in all of our historical knowledge. Also one of the least understood in the English speaking world as to its effect on the collective German psyche even into modern times. For a long time after the German peoples considered this a humiliating event and Albert Speer claimed the destruction on Germany at the end of WW2 War was only comparable to the Thirty Year War and various polls held over the years after the end of WW2 still had some Germans thinking that this was a greater national tragedy.

I am only a lay reader and would not like to compare as other historical events as I have a limited knowledge but it is for me certainly the major European religious war. I am of the opinion though that the British/English Civil War was also a religious war.

I had never thought of that before but I suppose the involvement of Sweden and France plus various others was an attempt to dominate the situation for their own political wants. The Swedes intervention was to protect Calvinism from Roman Catholic aggression. The French to negate the Hapsbergs. The involvement of others such as the Dutch and to a lessor degree the English was certainly related to the Roman Catholic Hapsburg's perceived hegemony.


The usual's such as Wallenstein and Gustavas deserve their fame to this day plus the various Hapsbergs but the individual that I find interesting is Cardinal Richelieu. The fact that he was a Catholic and aligned France with the protestant cause was an astonishing political gamble to take considering that France was Roman Catholic .

As I said above the effects were till felt until very recent times. I suppose that in the end the Holy Roman Empire as a concept was weakened and though it lasted until 1806 it was never the same and in my opinion the present breakdown of Europe into it's present component part is the consequences of this war.

See above but to add I would suggest that some peoples, the Czech come to mind, viewed the war as the end of their own culture that was then dominated by others. In the long term this is not true because, as I said above, today's Europe is essentially based along national lines. The boundaries may not be what they once were but the general linguistic grouping are seemingly within their own boundaries at this time. Of course it could be argued that other conflict such as the Napoleonic wars and both world wars had a huge impact and I would certainly not disagree but it could be said that they were the culmination of the Thirty year War.

Yes! as in it simply created a whole barrel of new ones that carried on for decades to come. European turmoil continued until 1945 but lets be honest. The long long conflict was ended at this time. Lets hope it stays ended.

Great idea for a thread and I look forward to contributing as it grows.

DreamWeaver

I recall reading that the military system in place as used by the Spanish at the opening of the war was soon outmoded by ther Dutch and then Sweeden, and that this is in part why Gustavus Adolphus holds such a high military reputation. Does he really deserve it though, or is this perhaps a notion of certain later romantacism being cast backwards by writers and historians? Daniel Defoe's 'Memoirs of a Cavalier' come to mind.

Hans321

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWeaver Does he really deserve it though, or is this perhaps a notion of certain later romantacism being cast backwards by writers and historians?

One shouldn't forget the impact the arrival of the Swedish army had at that time.

The Emperor had clearly won at that time and the sack of Magdeburg had happened shortly before, showing the ruthlessness the Imperial forces were willing to apply.

He was like an answer to the prayers of the Protestant cause.

Or in other words, there were quite a lot people with a rather positive bias.

Lucius

I look at it as a particularly nasty installment of the Long War between Germany and France(954-1945).

Sure, the religion thing got mixed in there too, but that's no big shock.

DreamWeaver

Is the 30 Years War the Making of Sweeden?

pikeshot1600

That is a very broad question. I think Sweden had several vital interests that led to her entry into the war in Germany:

1) Establish a defensive "bastion" in north Germany - either through occupation or dynastic alliances - to prevent any more powerful threats to Sweden's Baltic interests (Denmark was quite enough for them).

2) Establish a presence on Denmark's continental flank from which Danish control of the straits into the Baltic could be threatened by land.

3) Gain access to the North Sea that was not threatened by Denmark's position. That was done around Bremen.

4) As the war progressed (I don't think Gustav Adolf envisioned it at first), gain an influential voice in the affairs of the Holy Roman Empire and Imperial politics through Swedish recognized acquisition of territory inside the Empire.

All those vital interests were served in the course of, and as a result of the TYW.

Also, as the war developed, and as it wound down, lands acquired in Germany allowed Sweden to reward her service nobility with landed estates that provided for both their families and clients, as well as the defense of Swedish interests in those territories.

A large part of that was refered to as Satisfactio - paying off officers and some troops at the end of the war.

The TYW established Sweden as a power - moreso than she could really support long term, but Sweden was Made by Charles XI in my opinion.

(Gustav Adolf was still very cool though. )

Delenda est Roma

Sigsimund of Poland was kicked out of Sweden and only ruled Poland. When Gustav fought Sigsimund HRE states and the emperor sent help. Gustav decided he couldnt let them close off Northern Germany. He also intervened to help German
Protestants. Secure ports, and make money. Wallenstein, Gustavus Adolphus, Cardinal Richelieu were great men of the time.