Don Durito

I'm not saying that. Faber should be extradited for he committed crimes in the Netherlands and actually escaped prison there.

But morally, I say all Waffen-SS and SS members were criminals for they consciously decided to join the ideological military of the nazis.

Bish

I agree with your first statement completly. But not your second. Apart from anything else, not all SS members were volunteers.

Grimald

As far as I know, there were efforts to extradite Faber to the Netherlands, however without breaking the law. The death of Faber unfortunately prevented an honorable solution, and many people in Germany feel ashamed for this outcome.

I have to admit that I will have to read more about the legal situation. As far as I understand, there are two independent laws: One which specifies that those serving in the Wehrmacht or the Waffen-SS would be eligible to German citizenship, a decree by Hitler in 1943; and the second law from the German constitution, which specifies that German nationals cannot be subjected to extradition. In that case, Germany indeed would have to revoke the citizenship of these persons.

As I understand, extraditions are now possible to the International Court of Justice in Den Haag. An attempt to legalize extradition to other EU countries is on halt due to a ruling by German courts. I think that it is important to uphold the rule of law, even if in some single cases, the consequences are unwanted. You may read on the John Demjanjuk case, where similar problems occurred - not in Germany, but in Israel and the United States, emphasizing that these kind of problems are not specific for Germany.

Concerning the Waffen-SS, I am the last one to defend this organization. In contrast to the Wehrmacht, it was ruled a criminal organization by the Allies. Nevertheless, guilt is something individual, and history is not black and white. It is of course without question that the Waffen-SS was involved in many horrible war crimes and crimes against humanity, and that many of its members were fanatics. However, to my knowledge, the character of the Waffen-SS changed very much towards the end of the war, when it became more and more similar to a regular unit of the army. And many people joined the Waffen-SS not because they were fanatic Nazis, but because they wanted to defend their homeland. An example would be the ethnic Germans in Romania, who joined the Waffen-SS in masses after 1943.

I think that history is complex, and guilt something individual. There were people in the Wehrmacht who were neither Nazis nor antisemites, but committed horrible crimes. At the same time, there were Nazi party members who saved Jews. People with strong anti-democratic convictions were fighting against Hitler's regime. And there were also Waffen-SS members who did nothing more than fighting for their country.

Don Durito

Maybe it is indeed not fair to declare an entire group criminal based on the fact they were part of the Waffen-SS during wartime - and as someone who is fascinated by the dynamics of totalitarianism I should know that what makes these systems so horrible is that they play with morality, they can convince genuine good people to collaborate with horrible crimes and make them believe they are doing the right thing. I realize that the line between right and wrong is blurred especially in Germany itself but I still think that those who chose to join the Waffen-SS rather than the Wehrmacht (and then especially those who did so early in the war) are really moving into the ''wrong'' area. of course not all of them participated in genocide, but the Waffen-SS has been labeled as a criminal organization for a reason: those who enlisted themselves for this army basically declared their willingness to commit crimes. But then we get to the point where we have to ask ourselves... did they even understand it was criminal what they were willing to do?

Eichmann always took full responsibility for his crimes, but always maintained they were not crimes in his eyes.

Bish

Many people may also have joined the SS for reasons other than being nazi's. The SS was considered an Elite, and joining such an organisation would appeal to many. Just as joining the Airbourne or Marines today. And then there is also the crusade agaisnt Bolshevisim.

beorna

This is just partly correct. Such people have the right to get the German nationality. And so as Germans they cannot be extradited.

Erlaß über den Erwerb der deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit durch Einstellung in die deutsche Wehrmacht, die Waffen-SS, die deutsche Polizei oder die Organisation Todt from May 11th 1943 (RGBl. I. p. 315)

beorna

perhaps you inform yourself about the Waffen-SS or the SS as well, before you are making statements about it.

Belisarius

The Waffen-SS was deservedly designated a criminal organisation at Nuremburg, the only exeptions made were for those conscripted into the organisation after 1943. Given that as part of their "convalescence" wounded Waffen SS soldiers did tours of duty in the camps, it proved impossible to differentiate between the "waffen" and "allgemeine" branches.

Bish

Personally i believe that Nuremberg was wrong in this case. To be honest, i find quite a bit that came out of those trials difficult to take seriously given the SU participation.

Clearly some common sense was shown, as not all SS members, even those volunteers, faced any sort of trial.

But that's just my opinion.

beorna

yes, they have designated it as a Nazi organisation and therefor as criminal (surprisingly not the SS). Of course they have based their decision not on a scientific research.
The fact is, that there were not only one ss, but a several and there was not, as my grand-aunt likes to say a good and a bad SS, but the borders were unclears, as you stated correctly. nevertheless the history of the ss is more complex, than people usually know.