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View Poll Results: Who's side are you on?
The Central Powers 138 29.18%
The Triple Entente 186 39.32%
Neither one of them 149 31.50%
Voters: 473. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 1st, 2017, 08:17 PM   #1291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmperoroftheBavarians43 View Post
A principle I've been expressing in the NATO thread is my disgust for putting your people's lives at risk for abstract principles and ideas rather than an actual threat. Germany needed a route for their invasion, if they'd done nothing and let the Germans finish off France they probably could have pushed for Germany to let the Belgians go later on at the threat of war and blockade with far less British life lost(Germany would still be fighting Russia at this point). Will agree that going to war to preserve the existing order did make sense for the British from their vantage point but the Germans didn't actually have the means to attack Britain despite the BS many in the government were pushing about the naval arms race.
Once you march the troops in it's facts on the ground, the germans pretty rapidly had pretty keen oil Keeping it, they were pretty pissed with Belgians for not letting them through without a fight and felt for that the blains no longer deserved decent treatment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmperoroftheBavarians43 View Post
Germany went to war to prevent encirclement. Germany(or at least some in Germany) felt that the Russians were only going to get stronger as time went on and that risking war earlier was better than later. This encirclement was the fault of incompetent post Bismarck diplomacy though.
How would the Germany gong to war prevent encirclement, invading your neighbours does little to make them think better of you?

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Originally Posted by EmperoroftheBavarians43 View Post
Tsar Nicholas promised he would stop mobilization, Germany was ready to stop mobilization but the Russians kept going when Tsar's generals told him not to. Russia, Germany and Austria are equal partners in the blame game.
How is mobilisation the same as actually invading other Nations, and starting the shooting war? Yes Russia increased tensions by mobilising, other nations had mobilised before. Preparing for war is not the same as actually starting the war. Austria and Germany resorted to armed force to impose their will, and declined to use diplomacy, Russia simply started preparing for war how are these equilivent acts?
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Old August 1st, 2017, 10:51 PM   #1292
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Originally Posted by Sam-Nary View Post
Clearly, Austria wasn't some kindly old state that had been unfairly wronged by someone that they'd done no harm to. And even if one wishes to argue that the actions that Austria took were in response to Serb actions, the actions by Serb nationalists, be they from Serbia or Bosnian Serbs (who where thus citizens of the Austrio-Hungarian Empire would demonstrate that a Central Powers victory is NOT going to put an end to the tensions in the region.
Certainly horrible, but was it that much worse than what tended to happen in 1912 when Serbian forces (or ftm Greek or Bulgarian ones) overran a Moslem village, or in 1913 when Greeks or Serbs took a Bulgarian one in Macedonia? That's the way things tended to be done in the Balkans and points east.



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A smaller population did NOT stop the French from rearming after the Franco-Prussian War.
There's smaller and smaller.

In 1871, even after the loss of Alsace-Lorraine, there were still 36 million French against 41 million Germans. During the FPW itself, the populations had been virtually equal.

In 1910, OTOH, it was 39 million French against 65 million Germans - well over three to two. And after a CP victory, depending on the exact peace terms, the disparity might have become even greater.


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In Hungary's case, the territories they lost did NOT have a Hungarian majority in those regions. Yes, there were large numbers of Hungarians there, but they were in the minority when compared to the other groups.
All the ethnographic maps I've ever seen show significant Magyar-majority areas directly adjacent to Hungary's post-Trianon borders.

There were of course enclaves, like the Szekler "island" in Transylvania, which could not easily have been left to Hungary, but this was by no means always the case.
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Old August 1st, 2017, 11:46 PM   #1293
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Originally Posted by pugsville View Post
Once you march the troops in it's facts on the ground, the germans pretty rapidly had pretty keen oil Keeping it, they were pretty pissed with Belgians for not letting them through without a fight and felt for that the blains no longer deserved decent treatment.


How would the Germany gong to war prevent encirclement, invading your neighbours does little to make them think better of you?


How is mobilisation the same as actually invading other Nations, and starting the shooting war? Yes Russia increased tensions by mobilising, other nations had mobilised before. Preparing for war is not the same as actually starting the war. Austria and Germany resorted to armed force to impose their will, and declined to use diplomacy, Russia simply started preparing for war how are these equilivent acts?
Defeating and weakening their neighbours would have put the Germans in a better position than they were in 1914. Germany's intent was to neuter France's main ally in Russia to re isolate the French. The Franco-UK alliance was never such a sure thing, in the interwar period the UK wanted nothing to do with France trying to be European policeman. Russia's mobilization was basically an intent to start war as once Russia mobilized her opponents had to also or they would have no chance of enacting their plans if war broke it. These were highly complicated operations that had been planned for decades, once domino started and didn't cease immediately things were in motion.

Anyway clear we disagree on who the good guys were. This whole party started cause some guy called the central powers supporters on this thread traitors to civilization or some nonsense like that.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 12:35 AM   #1294

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmperoroftheBavarians43 View Post
Defeating and weakening their neighbours would have put the Germans in a better position than they were in 1914. Germany's intent was to neuter France's main ally in Russia to re isolate the French. The Franco-UK alliance was never such a sure thing, in the interwar period the UK wanted nothing to do with France trying to be European policeman. Russia's mobilization was basically an intent to start war as once Russia mobilized her opponents had to also or they would have no chance of enacting their plans if war broke it. These were highly complicated operations that had been planned for decades, once domino started and didn't cease immediately things were in motion.

Anyway clear we disagree on who the good guys were. This whole party started cause some guy called the central powers supporters on this thread traitors to civilization or some nonsense like that.
But Russia wouldn't have mobilized had the Kaiser stopped Austria from pursuing war with Serbia despite there being no hard evidence that the Serbian government organized Ferdinand's assassination.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 02:59 AM   #1295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmperoroftheBavarians43 View Post
Russia's mobilization was basically an intent to start war as once Russia mobilized her opponents had to also or they would have no chance of enacting their plans if war broke it. These were highly complicated operations that had been planned for decades, once domino started and didn't cease immediately things were in motion.
Mobilisation is not war. Other Nations had mobilised in other crisis and not resulted in war. Are you seriously saying that moving A Nation's troops around within that Nation sovereign territory , increasing their state of readiness is exact same thing as invading another Nation?

It was the germans who started the war by invading other countries , declaring and starting the shooting.

Russia may well have started the war once mobilised, it remains speculation. The war was started by Germany. Germany chose to stop talking and start shooting.

The Central Powers were initiating a change in the Status Quo by violent Military means. They could have chosen to talk. They chose to shoot instead.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 09:20 AM   #1296

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maki View Post
But Russia wouldn't have mobilized had the Kaiser stopped Austria from pursuing war with Serbia despite there being no hard evidence that the Serbian government organized Ferdinand's assassination.
I think even very patriotic Serbs have to admit that a big issue in the five weeks after Sarajevo was that the Prime Minister in Belgrade had no political space to operate, as the military was at least an equal power center to the civilian government.

Pasic might have been warning Vienna about the Archduke's visit ahead of time*, but he wasn't able to do so in an overt way precisely since Apis was an independent center of power in the regime. Of course, Alexander acted decisively two and a half years later when Apis faced a sort of kangaroo court.

*reference to a meeting between the Austrian Minister of Treasury and Serbian ambassador apparently arranged by PM Pasic.

Last edited by Kotromanic; August 2nd, 2017 at 09:52 AM.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 09:22 AM   #1297
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Originally Posted by Maki View Post
But Russia wouldn't have mobilized had the Kaiser stopped Austria from pursuing war with Serbia despite there being no hard evidence that the Serbian government organized Ferdinand's assassination.
The evidence at best was flimsy and it certainly wouldn't have stood up in a court of law.

The Black Hand was a Serbian group, and the conspirators were Bosnian Serbs with a loose affiliation to that group, but the Serbian government had no direct links to the Black Hand.

But, the Austrians were looking for any sort of reason, and had the assassination not taken place the Austrians would have engineered another reason sooner or later.

The root of the matter was Austria-Hungary's diminishing place in the world and the internal conflict within the empire which threatened to destroy it from within.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 09:26 AM   #1298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EmperoroftheBavarians43 View Post
Defeating and weakening their neighbours would have put the Germans in a better position than they were in 1914. Germany's intent was to neuter France's main ally in Russia to re isolate the French. The Franco-UK alliance was never such a sure thing, in the interwar period the UK wanted nothing to do with France trying to be European policeman. Russia's mobilization was basically an intent to start war as once Russia mobilized her opponents had to also or they would have no chance of enacting their plans if war broke it. These were highly complicated operations that had been planned for decades, once domino started and didn't cease immediately things were in motion.

Anyway clear we disagree on who the good guys were. This whole party started cause some guy called the central powers supporters on this thread traitors to civilization or some nonsense like that.
Well, yeah, to state they were: "traitors to civilisation" is bordering on the ludicrous.

They all played a part in it; it was the age of empire and that's what they did - although not always under the same guise.

The trigger was Austria-Hungary, and the Germans played a significant role in being similarly aggressive, but it didn't happen in a vacuum, it was the result of centuries of power politics; and Wilson and associates pretty much said that an ultimately were correct in their assessment of the European way of doing things.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 09:27 AM   #1299
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Originally Posted by dreuxeng View Post
[/I]



The Germans were led by a certain militarism you would think. They invaded someone else' country! That involves an explicit intent to kill (via the Schliefen Plan which they hastened to put into effect), and so forth...

That ought to be enough for all civilised people.

If you really think my post offensive, i can only say that that is one of the most desperately sad and thoroughly lost things i have ever heard of in my entire life.
That's one way of looking at it, another is to view Germany's actions in the context of the day.
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Old August 2nd, 2017, 09:39 AM   #1300

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I voted Triple Entente, because I would prefer the liberalism of Britain and France than the authoritarian militarism of Germany.

Also, Britain and France controlled vast colonial empires and had an abundance of resources and Britain was much more powerful as a naval power, both of which are extremely important in an industrial war.
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